Katie McKersie | Mitolife Radio Ep #184

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
acne, skin, find, day, minerals, vitamin e, people, feel, body, eat, beneficial, started, rosacea, clients, helps, supplement, protocols, face, thyroid, health

Matthew Blackburn 00:18
You are listening to Episode 184 of MITOLIFE Radio. I'm Matt Blackburn and today, I'm interviewing Katie Mc Kersey, a skin nutritionist. As someone that grew up having acne, and eczema. I'm really passionate about this subject. And it's actually a big reason why I started studying health in the first place is, I was tired of breaking out and having rashes, and all sorts of skin issues so that started me off on a raw vegan journey of consuming a lot of raw fruits and vegetables, and slamming enzymes, handfuls and handfuls of digestive enzymes. And it seemed to help, but it was only temporary until I started learning about fat soluble vitamins like retinol, especially Vitamin E, and Vitamin K2. I feel like increasing all three of those, largely via supplementation was a huge part of my recovery of my skin health, but it's going to look slightly differently for everybody. And so in this interview, Katie shares her personal experience and her experience working with clients and the three tests that she likes to give people to assess their overall health. She talks about the power of dairy, bowel movements and constipation, fiber. We talked about Zinc, Retinol, Vitamin E, ask her her thoughts on clay masks, talk about Accutane, Light therapy, Dermarolling, saunas and sweating oxalates and a lot more. So enjoy the show, here is Katie McKersie. All right, Katie McKersie, welcome to the show.

Katie McKersie 02:28
Thank you so much for having me.

Matthew Blackburn 02:30
Yeah, thanks for coming on. It's gonna be cool. I was telling you before we started recording, I got into health because of skin issues and I got sucked into the whole raw vegan vegetable juicing thing, which is interesting, because it seemed to help quite a bit to clear up my acne almost overnight. But then it came back and there was always like pimples, you know, coming up on my shoulders, or my neck or my face. But the enzymes and I don't know if stuff in the plant seem to help. But you were saying we're kind of in the same community of like researching, you know, I guess fat soluble vitamins, vitamins, vitamin minerals, and enzymes and that relationship. And I feel like once you kind of start to understand that puzzle, you can start to make headway with your skin health. Is that kind of in line with your philosophy? Or what are your thoughts on that?

Katie McKersie 03:29
Yeah, definitely. For sure. I mean, acne, I see it correlated so heavily with retinol deficiency Vitamin A deficiency. I mean, definitely lack of minerals as well and I think kind of like because I went down the plant based kind of route as well. And yeah, same thing basically happened to me, I think it's just more like, for me, at least it was shifting. It helped initially because it was shifting me to kind of whole foods like I didn't luckily fall into like the Beyond Meat burger or anything like that, but just started eating lots of fruits and vegetables compared to my normal like crafted (unintelligible) every meal. So yeah, I think that's kind of what helped me initially. But yeah, once I started getting like, the crazy digestive upset and all of that, that's when I had to start searching for more answers.

Matthew Blackburn 04:17
And you were telling me your your skin journey didn't start until after you took birth control, right? Like you didn't have this from birth, which is kind of a different thing. But -

Katie McKersie 04:28
Yeah, yeah, totally different. I was so healthy my whole life, even on birth control. I've like never felt better and that's kind of the weird thing about my story, I guess is like, I feel like a lot of people when they go on birth control, they, their mental health starts to decline and they start to feel weird symptoms while they're on it. I felt like the best I ever had on it and my whole life, I didn't really suffer from anything severe and definitely no acne or skin conditions. And then once I came off of it, it was totally random that I decided to go off like I moved to Australia, and I just didn't have health care over there, so I couldn't really access it as easily. So I just stopped cold turkey not knowing anything about it. Like I thought it was completely safe to be on and then just everything kind of fell through after that, like, my thyroid just crashed adrenals crash, like acne galore started losing my hair and all that. So, yeah, it's definitely different than like the typical, like teen acne and just never goes away.

Matthew Blackburn 05:29
Right? Yeah. I've interviewed a lot of really smart people on the podcast and you know Morley, I've had on so many times, he often says, "You know, when a mother makes a makes a baby has a child, she donates, whats it 10% of her minerals and the next child, it's like 9%, and the next one is 8%." And so, the mom like, offloads are minerals. And when you think about what our mom, you know, what our mom's nutrition was, which if it was like, standard American, probably not good. And then her mom and then her mom and her mom. Like, I think I grew up with it because I was, you know, I mean, my mom was, you know, awesome. She is awesome and she did the best she could, but like, she had deficiencies that then carried on to me, like you mentioned, like retinol and Vitamin E, right? But there's, I mean, everything magnesium and so many things.

Katie McKersie 06:26
Yeah, definitely. And that's what I do with my clients. Like, we really go back pretty far in their life just to kind of unpack some of this stuff. Like, even in my intake form, like were you depressed then, how long were you vaginal birth, etc, etc. So yeah, it definitely plays a huge role, but I was kind of the same as you like my mom. I mean, yeah, she she did her best, but definitely fed me, like Cheerios and like pizza from a box my whole life. So I'm honestly shocked. I made it until after birth control.

Matthew Blackburn 06:55
Do you think there's a big, like iron overload connection? Because, you know, that's been a huge conversation in the last couple of years, the iron filings and the food that a lot of us grew up with and how that affects just normal cell metabolism.

Katie McKersie 07:16
Yeah, no, definitely for sure. Especially for like acne that's more due to gut health. And just like bacterial overgrowth and parasitic infections, and that kind of stuff, like obviously parasites kind of feed off iron you know, and so, like, that definitely plays a huge role in in why people suffer from digestive issues and acne and all that. I really like to be honest, I really like okay, no one ever in the more like traditional alternative health space like always, like cut out dairy for acne or cut out dairy if you're doing like a parasite cleanse or something like that, right? So I'm kind of the opposite in a way like, if I, you know, suspect some iron overload going on, or I suspect some parasitic infection or something like that. We've really tried to increase raw milk intake just for like the Lactoferrin in it, just to help bind to some of that iron. I find that really helpful.

Matthew Blackburn 08:15
Yeah, yeah, I I experimented pretty heavily with dairy after I got out of veganism and vegetarianism. Like veganism. Milk is vegetarian, but it's a weird topic. Plants are carnivorous, right. But yeah, I drink like the organic pastures I think it was like It's like legal you can buy all around California sprouts and the grocery stores. But I was overdoing it. You know, I was drinking like a gallon a day or something. And I think it was A1 milk from Holstein cows and within a few weeks of drinking a ton, I mean, maybe it was a gallon every two or three days. But it was a lot. And it was raw, but I totally broke out in acne all over my face and that's the only thing I changed. And so I think people get so confused with the dairy thing where they have an experience like I had, and they're like, oh, dairy sucks, I'm just gonna throw it all out. But it's just you have to experiment right with different sources and different, you know, goat and sheep camel, and it's worth it to experiment, right?

Katie McKersie 09:26
Yeah, no, definitely. And like, for sure, I mean, they kind of just start identifying with foods like dairy free, kind of, I don't know like mindset in a way that's what I did for many years. Like I my beginning of my journey, I saw a natural path and let me know on the whole like sugar free, dairy free, kind of train and that just was kind of my identity. I told everybody I was like, and I pretended that I was like allergic to it. So that like made sure that nobody would like put it in anything if I was like going to eat out or whatever. But yeah, you really just got to teach your body kind of how to how to digest it if you can't front however many years if you gotta go super, super slow, that's what I kind of find in my practice, like, literally like bit by bit. And that definitely helps minimize any sort of acne flare up or anything like that for sure and then yeah, totally experimenting. I mean, like, hard cheeses, like Parmesan and stuff I find a little bit easier to digest. Fermented dairy is kind of like iffy, right, like, it technically, is easier to digest. But a lot of people, you know, have like, just like SIBO, and a lot of just kind of overgrowth going on when they have acne that sometimes they can't really tolerate fermented foods or dairy or anything like that, as well. But yeah, no, it's definitely not a matter of just like cutting out forever. It's way too good for your skin to do that. It's like such a good balance of all the macronutrients and everything. So -

Matthew Blackburn 10:51
Yeah, it's, it's interesting. Here in North Idaho, I have a friend, Beverly, has been buying raw goat milk from me, and she bought it from another homestead. And she actually had an allergic reaction to, to their raw goat milk, whereas from my goats, she had no allergic reaction. So we've been trying to figure out like, I think it's the water, because I'm very fortunate to have a spring feeding my house and so that goats are drinking filtered spring water, which is like the cream of the crop. That's my opinion, vortex. But yeah, I think I think there's so many variables that it gets really wild, like you really just have to try different sources. And -

Katie McKersie 11:37
Yeah, no, you got to kind of figure out what works best for you. But I mean, after I found out for years, I couldn't digest it either when I first started incorporating it, and I had to start with certain types, right, I had to start with like, goat and sheep milk and that kind of stuff. And like now I can tolerate basically any dairy like perfectly fine. It's only been a couple years, so 2 years, I guess. But -

Matthew Blackburn 11:59
Do you ever tell your clients to, like gently heat it up? If they can't, you know, if they get bloating from raw or?

Katie McKersie 12:07
Yeah, I mean, it's still like even heating up raw dairy, I still consider that better than eating pasteurized dairy. So yeah, I mean, definitely, I kind of just get them to experiment a little bit, go super slow. I mean, they literally take like a spoonful of yogurt a day sometimes. And it's like, kind of an annoying process but I mean, it kind of goes with everything. Like we do gut protocols and stuff, like, I mean, in order to not get a super bad detox reaction, because there's so many toxins that they have built up over the years, right? And when we start kind of opening those drainage pathways, we got to do it pretty slow in order to not experience a huge flare up in acne and I find that really discourages them. So it's not only like, obviously, it's not ideal to have happen, but I mean, they get very discouraged and they want to quit and they want to stop immediately.

Matthew Blackburn 13:00
Yeah, yeah, I guess people want faster results and sometimes I've had fast results. I think it's definitely a possibility but I think the faster you go, maybe the more chance of turbulence, my experience.

Katie McKersie 13:14
Yeah, no, definitely for sure. And skin, it's kind of like the last thing to heal in my kind of, I guess, practice at least, like it does take a little bit longer than some of the other stuff. And that's that's kind of interesting part about running a practice all around skin health. It's like you guys I like every client that I have discovery calls with I always explain I'm like, "It's not the same as Western medicine. It's not a quick fix. It's gonna take time you have to be patient."

Matthew Blackburn 13:46
Yeah, I think a lot of a lot of what I've read about skin health, you know, over the last, like 10 - 12 years on my skin journey was, "Oh, if the liver is backed up, then you're gonna have acne." So all you need your coffee enemas, or all you need are castor oil packs, or all you need is the Andreas Moritz liver gallbladder flush. You know, those gall stones, which I don't know if that protocols legitimate? Like it's like all these different like, liver, liver protocols. But, I mean, it's really everything right? It's like adrenals so thyroid, it's not just the lift the livers backed up, you're gonna have acne.

Katie McKersie 14:24
Yeah, no, definitely not. I mean, your detoxification system does mirror your skin for sure. So it is a huge part of it. But I guess my what I kind of try to teach my clients to is like, I don't just throw all this stuff at them. It'll just throw all the cleanses at them and you know, the casserole packs and the supplements and everything, like a lot of people kind of got to take a step back and be like, "Okay, do you have the nutrients for phase one? Detoxification? Do you have the nutrients for phase two detoxification?" Like, if you're coming from a vegan diet, the chances of you you know, being able to, you know, keep your face to detox makes me able to keep up is little right because it's so dependent on so many different amino acids and stuff. So yeah, I kind of like we focus on the foundations a little bit more, making sure they're at least eliminating daily as well. And if they're not getting them to that place, like relatively early in their journey, that's going to be huge. But yeah, I mean stress obviously plays a huge role in it like your hormones kind of everything. I'm developing a acne program right now. It's actually almost done. So I'm launching it in the fall and I kind of split it up into like five different modules that kind of incorporate a lot of moreso route to acne at the root causes of acne. So we have like stress nutrition, nutrient deficiencies, detoxification system, gut health and hormone health. So all it's all intertwined, all plays a huge role.

Matthew Blackburn 15:54
That's great. Yeah. Yeah, we've been so like, we've been fed so much misinformation and disinformation. And a lot of us have gone through like so many diets, protocols that I had to unlearn so much. to, like, open up to, you know, how, how amazing dairy is, and red meat and, you know, all these things I used to believe were mucus forming, right and acidify.

Katie McKersie 16:21
Yeah, yeah, I learned so much from you, honestly, over the years. Definitely. I've been following you for a while. So, yeah, but I was in the same boat. Like I looking back to where I was, I was just like, "Oh no, what was I doing?"

Matthew Blackburn 16:36
Well, that we're helping people. So it's great. Yeah. shortcutting. Do you ever use like lactase enzyme with clients? For dairy, because I know, our bodies make that and you said, like, starting with a spoonful of the yogurt today? And you're like, make more lactase enzyme. But do you ever give it to them, like exogenously or?

Katie McKersie 16:58
Yeah, I mean, it definitely is helpful. I don't think it's like the necessarily getting to the root of it. But I think it's really helpful to us so that they can incorporate day they can digest some of those nutrients, those really bioavailable amazing nutrients, get those, you know, stable fats and get the bioavailable protein and it's also very important for their liver and other organs. Right. So yeah, definitely use them before just to kind of help people along the road. Same with like, bioidentical hormones, you know, like giving them some progesterone, although maybe it's not getting to the root exactly. Like, in the meantime, we're gonna work on getting progesterone production up, and then hopefully, when they transition off, it'll be a little bit easier for them.

Matthew Blackburn 17:42
That's great. Yeah, I was shocked to learn. I don't know if you've heard my Adam Bergstrom shows but in my last one, he said he started supplementing progesterone, pregnenolone and DHEA.

Katie McKersie 17:54
Oh yeah?

Matthew Blackburn 17:54
He would supplement anything in a million years. It's great. So let's see. So you said you do gut protocols? Do you have like different ones that you apply to different people? Or you kind of have a -

Katie McKersie 18:12
Yeah, so it's more like so I run the GI-MAP test in my practice, I find it really beneficial, although like, I don't want people to hyper focus on it, right? So let's say parasites come back, let's say H. Pylori comes back, we do eradicate it. However we work on still the barriers, right? We still have to work on your mucosal barrier, we still don't work on your immune system. We still have to work on stomach acid production and the iron overload piece and all of that. So I think kind of where I used to go wrong, in terms of my personal journey was an attack by a parasite, attacked by H. Pylori, and I was like, Yeah, I'm done. Good. And then it just comes crawling on by. So yeah, it's definitely like really dependent on what you're dealing with specifically, I mean, the foundation's are very similar in terms of like building your body back up building those minerals back up so that, you know, you're, you're a lot more resilient to this kind of stuff. So I become in contact with certain things. It's not going to overtake your body and it's not going to cause acne and it's not really going to cause a lot of issues. But I do kind of tackle some things that we see on GI-MAP test through various different protocols. I mean, I do like motility for H. Pylori, and mastic gum and that kind of stuff.

Matthew Blackburn 19:35
Have you heard the theory that parasites are like symbiotes like we shouldn't try to kill them? I think this comes from like the like, was it trained theory people that you know, we should never take, I dont know, never tried to kill anything in the body. But I mean, they can cause some havoc, right?

Katie McKersie 19:54
Yeah, I mean, I suffered with Blasto for so many years that like I don't know, I'm not I'm not there yet. I can't really resonate with that I had to get rid of it for and I felt much better once I did. Blasto I think I've heard of that one. It's a long, longer name, right? Yeah. Blastos? I don't know if I'm saying it right, but Blastocystis hominous, I believe.

Matthew Blackburn 20:21
Wow. Have you ever looked into like ozone therapy or use that or -

Katie McKersie 20:27
Naw, I've never used it personally and never really recommended it either. So, ya know, I don't know a ton about it. But like, I go to a holistic dentist, and they always talk about there

Matthew Blackburn 20:40
Yeah, yeah, it's the it's pretty incredible. Like the the rectal insufflation for, you know, all sorts of intestinal issues. It's pretty amazing, I mean, both delivering oxygen and then killing pathogens.

Katie McKersie 20:57
Yeah I should look into it. Honestly, that sounds cool.

Matthew Blackburn 21:01
Yeah, it's pretty powerful. I mean, it's cheap. It's just oxygen tank. That's all you need to keep.

Katie McKersie 21:07
Yeah, no, that's awesome. Yeah, no, I haven't really experimented that, but I definitely will.

Matthew Blackburn 21:13
I see on your site, here, you have constipation. There's a lot of different views on that. On one side, you have the carnivores saying like one bowel movement a day or less is good and then you have Atom Bergstrom says like six to eight a day is good. Little balance, right?

Katie McKersie 21:34
Yeah. So I think like, I kind of look at it as, like when you're younger, right? Like a baby eats a baby poops. You know what I mean? So as many meals as you're eating a day, I think that's kind of the best in terms of number of bowel movements for the day. Three meals a day with most people than having three bowel movements a day. Obviously, it takes quite a while for people to get there. I mean, with acne, there's so much subclinical hypothyroidism going on that, like people are nowhere near that. So yeah, that takes time. But I mean, its a slow process, but getting there is huge.

Matthew Blackburn 22:12
Yeah. Do you think like, fiber plays a huge role, because I, I was pretty much fiber free for a while, I think my only fiber was like the raw carrot because I was, you know, just trying to Ray Peat thing pretty heavily for a couple of years. And I wasn't eating any raw greens, because you're supposed to cook all of them, otherwise, they're gonna kill you. And I didn't feel as good and I added back in raw leafy greens a couple months ago, and I feel so much better. It's interesting.

Katie McKersie 22:44
Yeah, no, I think fiber is huge, for sure. I mean, I think there's way too much of an emphasis on it in the health space, like the, you know, the naturopathic health space, because like, when I was suffering with constipation, all I got told for so long as like, drink more water and eat more fiber. And I'm like, "I can't possibly eat more fiber." So yeah, I think it's like a happy medium. Like, I don't I don't know when I cut back I definitely felt a bit of ease with my bowels, but I was definitely way overdoing it for sure. I think really focusing on yeah, like raw carrots is huge, and like cooked mushrooms and bamboo shoots and that kind of stuff that really helped with like, binding and carrying in the gut. That's huge. That's what we kind of focus on more in, in my practice, and I know I don't really too often recommend like a fiber supplement or anything like that, like psyllium husk or anything, just because like if you're eating whole foods, and you're getting lots of fruits in and stuff like I don't really see it to be super necessary for most people.

Matthew Blackburn 23:44
Yeah, yeah, that's my issue up here, in super North Idaho is, I only have unripe picked unripe fruit from Mexico. And so I feel like that's not good for my gut. Makes me feel so super excited to start growing it up here but people that are in sunnier climates they have it pretty easy.

Katie McKersie 24:05
I know it's so easily accessible for them and it's like all fresh and I'm jealous.

Matthew Blackburn 24:11
What part, oh you said you're in where do you live?

Katie McKersie 24:15
Canada, Toronto.

Matthew Blackburn 24:16
Canada? Okay.

Katie McKersie 24:18
Yeah it's cold all the time.

Matthew Blackburn 24:21
The communists?

Katie McKersie 24:23
Yeah oh my gosh, yeah, no we need to get rid of our (unintelligible)

Matthew Blackburn 24:29
Yeah, parasite cleanse.

Katie McKersie 24:31
Yeah. Oh my gosh, he's something else.

Matthew Blackburn 24:38
Yeah, I always tell people you know, with everything going on in the world and you know, it's there's so many different things we could focus on the shape of the Earth is it flat is like NASA real all these things and like, what matters to me is like, you know, community health or health clean water, clean air.

Katie McKersie 24:59
So ya. No, definitely everyone has their own opinion on everything like I've really tried to tune a lot of people out now, honestly, like, just doing like some digital detoxes has helped me so much. Just like it can be I find my clients get so so overwhelmed in terms of like on Instagram, there's like a million people saying a million different things, right. And I always tell him, like pick a few of the practitioners that you actually trust and you align with and you respect and just follow their advice and tune everybody else out. Otherwise, you're just going to end up going in circles.

Matthew Blackburn 25:32
Yeah, that's, that's great advice. Maybe that's all someone needs. I mean to start. I mean, I know when I take like a week off of social media, my nervous system feels better. My bowel movements are better. Just my nervous system. Everything improves just from taking a week off of Instagram. Incredible.

Katie McKersie 25:51
Yeah, I deleted Tik Tok recently, and I think it was the best thing to do for my mental health. I was on it way too much. And it kind of sucks because it's like, obviously, this is kind of our business, right? We kind of have to be on social media, so I can't go fully off of it but I would love to

Matthew Blackburn 26:11
You have here listed on your site, nutrient deficiencies, and you listed a bunch of them like eight. But do you want to just kind of quickly go through them and just kind of highlight? You know, the importance of them?

Katie McKersie 26:28
Yeah, so I mean, I'll talk you about like the three main ones, I guess, because I think I have a lot from there. And I kind of go more in detail on my program that's launching in the fall and we go into detail with a lot of different nutrients and how exactly that plays in terms of our skin health and plays in terms of our body but just to not like overwhelm everybody.

Matthew Blackburn 26:49
Yeah.

Katie McKersie 26:51
I'll talk about like Vitamin E, like Vitamin E is huge. I know you sell an awesome supplement, I just ordered them. So yeah, that mean that's definitely massive in my skin healing journey, for sure. It's a powerful antioxidant, fat soluble vitamin that fights free radicals and reduces inflammation. And I find it really helpful for hormonal acne personally, just because it does act like progesterone in the body and kind of helps with you know, counterbalancing that excess estrogen that most acne sufferers have. And then things also huge. I know like zinc, it's a big one, but it gets almost too much love in that new world because everyone who has acne to basically have a supplement with a synthetic zinc, I obviously like deadly prioritising from Whole Foods and from things like oysters and shellfish and that kind of stuff, and beef liver, but it's really important for acne, it's an antioxidant that kind of fights inflammation and regulates oil production and supports, like wound healing and repair. So that's huge and then retinol as well. It's another huge one for acne and skin health, especially like eczema and psoriasis and kind of other stuff that I deal with my practice a little bit as well. I've kind of seen like, the lower your Vitamin A levels are already rentinol levels are, the more severe your acne tends to be. Yeah, it just has a lot of like really key antiviral components. So I would say those three are the main ones like that's what I start people off with in my practice, like just to not freak them out a little bit like almost every single one of my clients is either getting Vitamin E and retinol from food or they're on some sort of supplement, whether it's your E or cod liver oil or you know, desiccated oyster for zinc.

Matthew Blackburn 28:41
That's great. Yeah, I was just reading in my, my book this morning. The recommendation is, I think it's point it's like, .70 milligrams, so like a little over half a gram, or milligrams of Vitamin E per gram of PUFA. So there's like a ratio of, you know, the more proof that you have coming in the more Vitamin E you need and I've read different studies have different recommendations. I mean, we could just round up to say what makes it easy one, you know, milligram per gram of Kufa.

Katie McKersie 29:13
Yeah, yeah. I mean, most of my clients, they're taking one of your E a day sometimes to if they go out to eat, or you know, they can't really avoid any like some restaurant cooking and seed oils or something like that. But yeah, yeah, no, I totally think it's it's definitely underrated when it comes to skin health and people definitely to put a huge focus on on that, and retinol for sure.

Matthew Blackburn 29:40
Do you do a like HTMA testing because I want to jump into zinc here for a second there's a controversial one because I was probably responsible for kind of, you know, the zinc hating and I think everything has its role, you know, like, you know, estrogen and nitric oxide like none of these things are like evil, it's just imbalanced, right? But I like when I got my full monty panel, I was low and not only copper, but also zinc and so if I start taking copper, my thoughts are, I'm going to deplete my zinc and put myself further out of balance. So I guess my question for you is like, do you think or have you seen some of your clients that are deficient both copper and zinc?

Katie McKersie 30:29
Yeah, for sure. No, I definitely seen it quite a bit. And yeah, copper plays a huge role too, right and that's kind of why I don't I don't recommend supplementing synthetic zinc because One: a lot of them don't have copper added in which it's like a problem on its own and then Two: like we're just not getting enough copper in general typically so yeah, HTMA tests are super are like so amazing just kind of looking at your body on a more cellular level. And just really getting like the why behind acne you know what I mean? Because the foundation is minerals, if you don't really start there, you're not really going to see a lot of progress right? So that's kind of what we have to do in my practice is really take everyone a step back and and look at their mineral status. I mean, like so many people are, are suffering with like blood sugar issues, right? And I feel like a lot of people are just throwing like, you know, inositol or like glucose optimizers at them right and I mean, that can be helpful but if you're not really balancing those four main macro minerals it's not really going to get anywhere long term so yeah, no, definitely I think they all play a huge role in they're all obviously kind of work like together so it's it's important to pay attention to all of them for sure.

Matthew Blackburn 31:44
Yeah, I remember years ago, I think it was a Kickstarter something a company was selling this new product it was like a pen that uses like acupressure points it was supposed to like put it I think on certain parts of your fingers on the tips or something and it was it was connected to an app and it was supposedly tell you what vitamins and minerals you have to hire to based on like, this electric little pen thing and I wish it worked that would have been so easy but -

Katie McKersie 32:17
Yeah, wait it didn't take like blood or anything? It just -?

Matthew Blackburn 32:21
Yeah.

Katie McKersie 32:22
What the heck

Matthew Blackburn 32:23
You just like hold it on your skin that says want to move it and I think it's like it was like on either side of your fingernail and you go across your five fingers. Okay, like

Katie McKersie 32:31
Oh, weird, yeah. I've never - that's interesting.

Matthew Blackburn 32:36
I think the last decade I've seen so many like, what is it Sio scans and you put your - I've gone to so many health conferences and cancer summits, you know, you put your hand on that thing and then it like reads, you know, the conductivity and then it tells you everything. But your vitamins and minerals like I questioned the validity of those.

Katie McKersie 32:57
I know I think that's why naturopathic medicine gets a bad rap sometimes is because like, they both hyper focus on these things where it seems a bit more like out there. But yeah, I don't know about that.

Matthew Blackburn 33:11
The HTMA you'd say it's pretty accurate. So I remember Morley saying, you know, once they learn they burn your hair the first thing and that I don't know if that oxidase, oxidizes all the minerals, or some kind of magic doesn't oxidize all of them but maybe some of them are more prone? I don't know.

Katie McKersie 33:28
Yeah I mean, I find it pretty accurate in my practice, it tends to kind of correlate a lot with symptoms clinically for sure. And especially like conditions like hypothyroidism or hyperthyroidism, you can kind of really see it within HTMA, and what exactly is kind of behind it. Yeah, so I would say it's pretty accurate only once, like I've tested I've done a lot of functional testing, I went through FDN school and these three like the HTMA the GI-MAP and the Dutch test are the only three that I run now because I kind of did some of those other ones and like I just didn't find them very definitive. And I don't know, I just didn't really get a lot of answers from them. So these ones are the ones that I find really beneficial for acne and kind of getting to the root cause and seeing what we need to put more of a focus on for people and kind of eliminate some of the guessing out of it. So I like them.

Matthew Blackburn 34:22
Hmm, that's awesome. Let's see. So I guess we could jump into some of the questions if if you want and kind of go down some different rabbit holes.

Katie McKersie 34:34
Yeah, sure. Let's let's give it a shot.

Matthew Blackburn 34:38
We have a ton of them, so.

Katie McKersie 34:39
Okay

Matthew Blackburn 34:43
We'll start with the controversial one, "Thoughts on the no PUFA skin oil hype?"

Katie McKersie 34:50
Yeah, um, I mean, definitely like it better than slathering a bunch of PUFA's on your skin, for sure. I personally like in terms of brands I love FATSKN, they're a Canadian brand; They're based out of Calgary. I use a ton a ton of those. I mean, I do 100% think we should be putting, you know, mainly stable like saturated fats on our body, they mimic our sebum production like they closely resemble their natural sebum. So, I mean, that kind of tells our body, "Hey, we have enough sebum, we don't need to really produce a lot more." right? I think kind of with that as well, though, like, in terms of oil cleansing and putting a bunch of oils on your face I really like or at least when you have active acne, I find oils can be really beneficial in terms of like putting them on your face, and then washing them off afterwards. But I find if they stick on your face as in like a moisturizer, and they stay on your face all day - doesn't usually end too too well, with people with acne, at least active acne, I can use the FAT on my face now, but I couldn't when I was suffering with really bad hormonal acne. But yeah, no, I definitely encourage my clients to stay away from plant saturated fatty acids on your skin they can oxidize, especially with sun exposure and cause a lot of inflammation and kind of disrupt your skin microbiome, which obviously isn't ideal.

Matthew Blackburn 36:17
Question came up, I'm curious about what are your thoughts on like bentonite clay masks or clay masks in general? Because I know, you know, biohackers promote that like, you know, two or three days a week, you know, putting clay on your face.

Katie McKersie 36:32
Yeah, so I'm kind of part of the trend of like, the less is better in terms of skincare like I hardly do anything to my skin now. And I had like at least 10 products when I had acne like just on the go like couldn't live without them like thought they were doing so much for me. So, I mean, not that I think bentonite clay would be a bad thing to do here and there, I wouldn't recommend it more than one time a week, if you are going to do it. I'm not a big fan of like, exploiting skin a lot. I mean, I suffered with rosacea for many years and kind of like what you're told, for some reason in the rosacea community is like exfoliate lots and get new, you know, get new skin cells and everything producing but I mean, at the end of the day, you got to let your your skin barrier repair itself, you know, you got to kind of take some time away from breaking it down. I don't know, I feel like a lot of people are just over cleansing and over exfoliating. So I will typically recommend my clients to take about a month off once they started working with me one to two months of everything and just putting like some filtered water on your face.

Matthew Blackburn 37:40
That's great. Well, you guess the next question because someone asked, "Rosacea postpartum: There's solutions for that?"

Katie McKersie 37:48
Yeah. So I kind of correlate rosacea a lot with gut health and to be honest, like, we see it a lot with parasites, we see it a lot with SIBO. I mean, my Blasto was definitely causing my rosacea for sure. Maybe not causing it necessarily, but definitely playing a role a huge role in it. Like SIBO, H, pylori, and leaky gut or just like intestinal permeability. Those are all really big rosacea culprits. But you're saying postpartum is when she noticed it? Yeah, so yeah, I mean, you kind of got to evaluate all the things going on there. Right? Is stress playing a role? Is there environmental toxins and chemicals coming out on a daily basis? What is their diet like? Like, I mean, are they doing intense cardio and not really giving the body a little bit of a break and really, just just chilling out in nourishing your body? Yeah, you kind of kind of look at that. But typically, like, we really do a GI-MAP and dive into the gut microbiome for sure with rosacea and even sometimes I've seen it related to parasitic infections on the skin. So a lot of people do well with like a probiotic cleanser or moisturizer sometimes. I find that can kind of really help just you know crowd out those bad guys.

Matthew Blackburn 39:13
That's great. Let's see. "Eczema even with the clean diet, they say add in the supplements?"

Katie McKersie 39:25
Yeah, so I know eczema and psoriasis, those ones they can be annoying for sure. So definitely increased Vitamin E and retinol intake from foods or from something I mentioned before, get rid of any like steroid cream that you're using or any pharmaceutical cream replaced with like some nice tallow and grass fed tallow, your Vitamin E can pop a capsule open and put it on your face and healing from intestinal permeability to kind of regulate your immune response as well. That's going to be huge, obviously, like diet is the foundation, right? So that's going to be crucial, making sure you're getting enough minerals and I feel like, I can't really stress that enough when it comes to skin conditions, I feel like we're all just - under eating minerals so just wherever you can kind of add those and get, get as many possible in, and then you really just got to spend some time like repairing the barrier of calming your immune system that's gonna get that's gonna take a lot of fat soluble vitamins like ADK to help repair. So that's where I would kind of I would kind of go with it but obviously it's kind of a case by case basis.

Matthew Blackburn 40:40
Oh, sorry, I forgot to unmute myself, the noise down here. I've been wondering the last several months, like how many people are deficient in fat soluble vitamins. Because you know, the last two years with COVID. It's like Vitamin D, Vitamin D, that's the most important one. But there's not a lot of talk of the other ones. Like I think even like Dave Asprey, when he owned bulletproof. He had an AD and K supplement. But I'm like, where's the E? Like, leaving one out, you know, or emphasizing the wrong ones and so, yeah, my thought recently was like, why not bump them all up with like, Rosita, and then like, a good Vitamin E and a K2? And just -

Katie McKersie 41:27
Yeah

Matthew Blackburn 41:28
increase all of them?

Katie McKersie 41:30
Yeah, I mean, the amount of calcium shells I see on HTMA tests, and it really highly correlates with acne. So I mean, Vitamin K can definitely, definitely play a pretty big role in helping with that. But yeah, 100% like everything in the body works together, right? Like, we can't just start isolating stuff and expecting like to be in balance, and it's just going to drive more imbalance, which is just going to drive further inflammation, right? So yeah, definitely.

Matthew Blackburn 41:58
What do you tell people that took Accutane, like synthetic Vitamin A, because that's a question that I've got, since I started talking about Rosita is like, you know, what if I have Vitamin A toxicity because I was on Accutane, but that seems kind of like a complex topic, because it's, I don't know if some people like what does it grant general or whatever the anti Vitamin A people say that there's no difference with what's synthetic or natural Vitamin A, it all breaks down to the same one. But then, like synthetic retinol has different effects from like cod liver oil, we know this. So?

Katie McKersie 42:37
Yeah, I don't really understand that because then like, the whole thing with Accutane, right, is that it's synthetic retinoic acid, so it basically stops you from breaking down retinal - retinoic acid, that's my understanding of it. Right, so like, if that doesn't really make any sense, how they you know what I mean? Like how they think it's the same, like Accutane is a very harmful pharmaceutical that I mean, I see people coming off of Accutane coming to me, like desperately for help all the time, because their acne just comes crawling back and like 10 times worse, and I mean, yeah, part of that is due to the retinol part of it's like, it's going to do a dirty number on your liver essentially, which is your main detoxification organ, right and also depletes you tons of crucial nutrients like we talked about, like copper, for sure and then that can disrupt ion recycling and slow that thyroid conversion down as well. And like I said, like most people are suffering from subclinical hypothyroidism usually with that.

Matthew Blackburn 43:40
Yeah, I wonder if bumping up just the E and the K2 maybe waiting on the cod liver oil? I don't know. I've heard mixed things. There's probably so many variables with people that are on Accutane. But - wonder if maybe bumping up to E and the K2 would balance out?

Katie McKersie 43:56
Yeah, potentially, but I just see, it's so different. I see retinol and rentinoic acids, so different, you know what I mean? So I wouldn't even I wouldn't stress too much about it. But I would still incorporate retinol and making sure we've got enough copper into right like we use. I mean, we use copper in in combo with oxygen to make energy. So if we can't make energy, we can't, you can't really have a healthy metabolism. Right and like I kind of mentioned it, it it all. It all starts there and that's where we see a lot of people struggling with on HTMA tests. It's just their thyroid and their metabolism just aren't functioning optimally.

Matthew Blackburn 44:34
Hmm. A question came up, but I wanted to ask you about your thoughts on light therapy because I know the sun is a hot topic right now. There's like all these influencer accounts like more the better, you know, sunlight and then there's the whole red light therapy industry. And then there's the 250 watt heat lamp and I've kind of gone through all the different protocols and practices of experimenting with all of them, like naked ice baths, noonday sun, grounded the whole deal. And like, you know, only or mostly red lights or, you know, different things, but I know they use blue light right cosmetically to reduce that.

Katie McKersie 45:24
Yeah, that's more like the medical community, or at least that's not the way I typically recommend in my practice. I mean, they do both help with acne, but it's more like, what are you getting in the long term, right, so blue light, I mean, it's more surface level penetration, like it doesn't really, you know, it literally kind of hits the epidermis. And then I find it longterm to really disrupt the skin microbiome, and I find it to cause a lot of cell shrinkage and it can actually speed up aging in a way and hyperpigmentation. So I am more on the side of like red light for sure for skin health. I mean, it might take a little bit longer to see the positive effects of it but I kind of look at blue light as like suppressing acne and red light, really just improving overall skin health in order to be acne free kind of forever, because definitely more definitely penetrates deeper into the dermal layer for sure and helps - I mean, you know lots about this as well. But it helps like stimulate your mitochondria to be more active and it's very, definitely more anti inflammatory and more, I guess more helps with like tissue repair and collagen production and that kind of stuff. That's really awesome for your skin. So yeah, definitely more on the side of the red light, for sure. And then yeah, I'm probably in terms of like sunlight, I'm probably one of the few acne skin health people that recommend not using sunscreen every single day on your face. I mean, I'm like ginger, and in the summers and obviously I burned right. So as much as I you know, try to eat the best I can limit my PUFA's, take Vitamin E, like, I'm just so pale and so sensitive to the sun. So what I do is I, you know, just, just monitor how much I'm outside, right? I'm not gonna lie in the sun with no shade or anything like that for like 10 hours every single day. But I also don't think it's healthy to kind of slather yourself in, in sunscreen, especially chemical sunscreens. And I mean, you're not really getting much Vitamin D, which is huge for acne, it definitely improves immune function in your skin and blood cell formation stuff.

Matthew Blackburn 47:38
Yeah, I, you know, I came from, like the quantum health community and, you know, their perspective is like, you know, vacation in Mexico every winter to make sure that you don't, you know, miss out on sunlight for a part of the year. And I just wonder, like, how these people's skin is going to look in years - you know, in decades from now, because, like photo aging is a real thing and UV induced skin damage is a real thing. It's not a conspiracy - and there are factors, you know, people emphasize like Vitamin E helps, you know, preconditioning your skin with red light protects the chromosomes from, you know, UV damage, and there's all these factors but I think at some level, you know, no matter how much retinol you have, or Vitamin C or vitamin D, damage, it will still be done if you overdo the sun exposure and I think that's it shouldn't, be but it's a controversial message right now becaus, yeah -

Katie McKersie 48:38
Yeah, honestly, and I mean, you can get too much of a good thing, right? That's what I always tell people like if you're actively getting sunburned every single week, like clearly that's not necessarily a good thing. Or if you'd like are super tan and look like a leather bag with some people. So yeah, I mean, it can be super healing and super beneficial. I mean, it's so anti inflammatory, it's improved sleep quality and regulate circadian rhythm and I've seen it being so so helpful the sun for especially psoriasis, eczema, but even acne too, like I feel like when I go out in the sun, like my acne, my old acne I used to have all the time like it would clear up, right? And psoriasis and eczema like the sun can be so medicinal for them as well and the whole Mouth communities like no UV light it's gonna you know, damage your skin and yeah, I mean too much of it maybe but I don't think it needs to be demonized fully.

Matthew Blackburn 49:37
Yeah. Let's see. Someone asked, "Can you can you minimize or shrink your pores? Is that possible?"

Katie McKersie 49:47
Um, yeah. I mean, like, in a way for sure. Things I like to do in terms of, you know, getting rid of those like gaping gaps and stuff that people always say they have in their skin. Ice rolling, I found to be beneficial just on like a morning. I mean, it can help stimulate your vagus nerve as well, which is really beneficial. If you're suffering from like digestive issues or mental health issues, your Vitamin E topically would be pretty good. Even progesterone topically on your skin would be pretty good and red light therapy as well. That would be good, even actually, to your Dissolve-it-all would probably be pretty helpful for that, especially for acne scars. If anyone's suffering with acne scars out there, Dissolve-it-all, I think that would definitely help.

Matthew Blackburn 50:33
Oh, that's awesome. Did you say derma rolling? Or I don't know if that was in the list. But if not, are you a fan of that?

Katie McKersie 50:41
Yeah, yeah, I do like derma rolling for sure. I mean, just be careful with like, the needles that people can get, like, I do have a derma roller and I think mine's like .25, the needle. So I don't recommend I mean, going hammer your skin with these super long needles that some people do, because there's no regulation on these products, like they'll sell whatever. So, yeah, but that and acupuncture on your face, like cosmetic acupuncture, I find really beneficial and especially like, utilizing that maybe on like a weekly basis and then putting a Vitamin C on topically and just really getting some Vitamin C into the epidermis. That can be really, really beneficial for skin healing.

Matthew Blackburn 51:24
That's great. Let's see, "How to clear Tinea Versicolor for good?" That's like a fungal thing, right?

Katie McKersie 51:33
Yeah, I think that's an autoimmune condition, too. Yeah, I would treat it similarly to psoriasis and eczema. Yeah, I don't deal with that along my practice, though. I haven't had a ton of experience in that one. But yeah, to my understanding, it's more considered autoimmune B. So wwork on gut health, for sure, work on intestinal permeability. And yeah, just really, really start kind of building back up your gut health and your microbiome.

Matthew Blackburn 52:03
Let's see, "What are your thoughts on dandruff?"

Katie McKersie 52:08
Yeah, I suffered like really, really bad dandruff when I was going through it after birth control, like I'm talking huge chunks like the size of my hand, I would literally just hold my whole scalp off. And now for the most part, it's gone. What I kind of did to heal it was fixing my thyroid was huge. I find dandruff and underactive thyroid, huge correlation. Sometimes Candida Overgrowth can be present in the gut or some sort of yeast fungal overgrowth. And that was definitely part of the case for me, for sure. So, never really recommend like Candida diets or anything like that. Don't really recommend starving of the yeast but sometimes, like some antifungal herbs, incorporating those can be really helpful. And in terms of like a topical perspective, I stopped washing my hair, like I haven't really used shampoo and quite some time, which I know sounds kind of gross but that was honestly probably the biggest game changer. And like, for a while I use apple cider vinegar as my shampoo, just to kind of help balance the pH of your skin. And that was really beneficial as well and getting it exfoliate it to like, I would recommend taking a break from shampooing from a topical perspective, but still stimulating your scalp. So they have like exfoliation brushes on Amazon, I believe or you can go to like an actual exfoliation clinic. But just doing that on like a weekly bi weekly basis, just to make sure you're still you know, stimulating some new hair growth. But really scaling back on on the washing, we don't want to keep stripping our skin of its natural oils.

Matthew Blackburn 53:54
Yeah, that's a good recommendation. Most of my family and friends are down in Southern California and you know, San Diego where I grew up the water, the municipal water is so hard. Like the TDS is like 480 parts per million the last time that I measured it. I mean, that was like 10 years ago, but it probably hasn't changed much. And every time I go there and I stay at my parents house and I shower, even with the dual KDF shower filter, you know that I have on my site. Like it doesn't take out the hardness of the water and like I try to shower as cold as possible. Because if it's even lukewarm, I get out my hair feels like sticky. Just how hard the water is. So, I mean, I feel for people that are in that situation because you really have to buy a house and get a whole house water filter. That is the solution. Otherwise you're living van life and maybe you connect to a campsites with good well water, whatever. I don't know.

Katie McKersie 54:56
Yeah

Matthew Blackburn 54:57
It's a tricky situation.

Katie McKersie 54:59
I know Yeah, I do have a shower filter and I do recommend them to like my clients for sure for their skin health and for their scalp health. But I mean, yeah, you only can really go so far like I rent this condo, right? So I can't just necessarily, like tear up the whole thing and then get like an awesome system in here.

Matthew Blackburn 55:19
Yeah, I think water softeners probably help but yeah, you can't really do that with the rentals. So just do your best. I mean, I've heard people doing buckets of filtered water, but that's not really sustainable. You know to shower

Katie McKersie 55:32
I know. I know. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I just found now like, for me, like, just doing the best I can with everything, you know, like, because I am one of those like type A people that am like, I'm will do everything 100% like, I'm so devoted. And I kind of like that almost like limited my healing so much because I was so stressed when I couldn't get like all these things that I thought I really needed. So I kind of have to take a step back from some of it and really just like calm my mind and realize that like it's not the end of the world and we kind of have to take it step by step, right? Like, I mean, yeah, one day I would love to like live somewhat off grid like you.

Matthew Blackburn 56:15
Someone messaged me this morning, they're like, you always remind me to chill the eff out and I was like, that's a good compliment.

Katie McKersie 56:22
Yeah, that's an awesome compliment

Matthew Blackburn 56:25
But yeah, that's, that's a good message. We do the best we can and I've been there too. You know, when I discovered all the foods grown and synthetic salt based NPK fertilizer, it's like, okay, I'm just going to eat less food. But that doesn't work - so

Katie McKersie 56:40
I know. Exactly. that's definitely not labeled anything metabolisms.

Matthew Blackburn 56:46
A question that came up on the dandruff, because I've seen, like, shampoo that, like North American Herb & Spice sells, and they said that helps with it. I think, Cass Igram used to talk about it. But um, I was curious if you ever used like oregano oil for any of these skin conditions, or oregano oil in general?

Katie McKersie 57:08
Not like orally? Yeah, definitely. The only thing I find with oregano oil is I find people develop very much like similar to like antibiotic resistance that kind of developed like oregano oil resistance. And because oregano oil is more of one of the more mainstream herbs in the natural space, like I feel like a lot of people use it as like a natural alternative to antibiotics and antifungals and that kind of stuff. Which is great. Like, that's awesome. But I find it some for some people who overuse it, it doesn't work as great. That's just my personal experience in my practice. So it's definitely not the only thing I use, but I have used it for sure and I do love the North American Herb & Spice one.

Matthew Blackburn 57:53
Yeah, I thought I heard of people with like, external fungal, fungal conditions. Like applying it right, you know, to their skin having benefit. But yeah, pretty hardcore. I mean, years ago, I put it on my feet in the sauna and I felt like I was almost dying. So it was so intense.

Katie McKersie 58:13
Yeah, I've never done that personally, but I mean, it might have some some solid effects. I think methylene blue would probably have some some really good effects as well, topically.

Matthew Blackburn 58:25
Let's - this is a good one, "How to get rid of dark circles, I guess under the eyes and stretch marks?"

Katie McKersie 58:34
Yeah, that honestly, why do I get that question so much. Sleep more for the dark circles. I mean, also ice rolling again, that can be really beneficial for it, stressing less like it's, it's more, not necessarily one thing that you can do for a lot of this stuff, especially, you know, stretch marks and, and the puppy eyes and that kind of stuff. Like it's more just like once you actually start to nourish your body and your body feels safe and your body is getting enough of the nutrients everything's going to start to improve. You know what I mean? Like your nail health will start to improve, your lips will look fuller, your your skin will be as like dehydrated, in a way right. So, yeah, I wouldn't necessarily say it's one particular thing but ice rolling can be helpful. Making sure your skin is hydrated, making sure your skin barrier isn't disrupted and isn't irritated, like stop putting lots of chemicals on it, stop exploiting all the time just kind of give it a break and let your body kind of heal itself.

Matthew Blackburn 59:41
This is a pretty good one, "How to get rid of age spots on your face? I'm only 39 and and take Vitamin E."

Katie McKersie 59:51
Yeah, that's probably years of like excess PUFA's, probably years of iron overload. I mean, yeah, like in the medical community they would just be like, "Oh, it's the sun." All of it, right. But I mean, it's definitely just coming from undernourishment for so many years and probably a lot of dieting, right? And a lot of, you know, yo-yo dieting and just kind of disruptive hormones and not, not really your body being balanced for many years. So I think kind of the way to do that is look at some of your other symptoms, right? Like, are you suffering from constipation? Are you suffering with digestive issues? Are you - do your periods and really work on those things? Once you kind of get those figured out. The some of the more like, superficial stuff will kind of resolve itself.

Matthew Blackburn 1:00:42
That's awesome. Let me see, someone has smoking cannabis and its effect on skin health. I mean, it might help if it's lowering stress.

Katie McKersie 1:00:55
I mean, I yeah, I don't smoke at all. But I do take THC and CBD sometimes just if I'm suffering with some anxiety, or just a really stressful place in my life. The only thing I'd be cautious about would be like it potentially increasing estrogen. I mean, it feels like everything increases estrogen in this world. But yeah, I would be cautious with that. If you're already suffering from like an estrogen dominance kind of picture. I would just be cautious with that. But other than I mean, if you know, if it's kind of reducing your stress, it's probably helping you to some extent, but maybe not a daily thing is best.

Matthew Blackburn 1:01:36
"What are your thoughts on the Chinese medicine face mapping charts for skin in organ connection?"

Katie McKersie 1:01:46
Yeah, no, I love it. Yeah, I'm actually going to do a series on Instagram that soon I think I'll do it maybe next week. Just like an acne face mapping series and kind of going over where if your acne is in a certain place on your face, what it could be correlated to. I don't think it's necessarily like a diagnostic tool and it's not like the end all be all you already mean. Like you've got to kind of take it with a grain of salt in a way but I think it can be beneficial for sure. I mean, like jawline acne, that's so clearly hormonal, right that deep cystic jawline, acne and then between those eyebrows typically like stress, and I've seen like, around your lips, that'd be so correlated to just oral health and like a disrupted oral microbiome, right? Or like some sort of gum infection going on. And then your neck to like that's, that's where so many of your lymph nodes are. So maybe look into lymphatic stagnation. And usually it leads you down the right kind of direction. So yeah, I'm a fan.

Matthew Blackburn 1:02:46
Have you ever experimented with Tesla violet ray? Heard of that?

Katie McKersie 1:02:52
No. Wait, what is that?

Matthew Blackburn 1:02:54
So I learned about it from my friend Brandon, that runs Shen blossom. And he has a few cool devices on a site and it's one of them that he resells. Basically, it's like, they use it in cosmetic clinics and it's a high voltage, run through this glass tube that's filled with argon gas. So basically, it's like energized argon gas plasma. And, so it like glows purple. That looks really cool. And so you put it I usually put it like on my neck, but a lot of people just use it in their face, and it emits some UV lights, and it supposedly kills bacteria. It's supposedly there's quantum effects. And it's a really interesting thing, but to me just feels really good when I use it. Like on my neck. I just feel like I can breathe easier.

Katie McKersie 1:03:44
Yeah, that's awesome. That's so cool.

Matthew Blackburn 1:03:49
Yeah, but yeah, not to overwhelm people with all these options.

Katie McKersie 1:03:54
I know people get like so stressed out about whatever I find I'm like, No, it's okay. Just like, "Take a step back. Focus on nourishing your body. Get in nutrients, you know, don't eat super fast. Everythings gonna be okay."

Matthew Blackburn 1:04:07
Yeah, yeah and I wonder how much like, like, back in the day, I went to people's kitchen and I would look in their cupboards, the supplements they were taking, and you just never know, like someone's environment or the supplements they're taking, like, even the client you're working with might not divulge really important information to you. That might be holding them back, right? Like this. All these little factors that can play in, like their head being too close to an outlet or in their bed or something. It's like, there's a million

Katie McKersie 1:04:42
Or people sleeping with their phones under their pillows or their laptops like, they're like having their laptop.

Matthew Blackburn 1:04:49
The big one Yeah.

Katie McKersie 1:04:52
Yeah, no, there's so many little things and like, at the end of the day, that's also kind of why I tell my clients I'm like, "it's you that, it's your Journey right? And it's you that are healing as much as I can guide you, I'm not there to do it for you. So you have to kind of take some responsibility on your own and, you know, implement my suggestions, but also like, yeah, take take it into your own hands as well and that's, that's truly gonna be the way to heal." I mean, that's the way I did it, right? Like, if I followed the doctor's recommendations this whole way, I'd still have a faceful of acne, so.

Matthew Blackburn 1:05:24
Mhm. Um, someone's asking a few people asked about keratosis pilaris kind of same, same solutions, or?

Katie McKersie 1:05:34
Yeah, I mean, I don't really deal with that too, too much in my practice, like I deal more with acne, psoriasis, and eczema, for sure. I mean, it's just I'm, I'm pretty sure it's the one that causes like super dry rough patches and tiny bumps. So I think they call it like, chicken skin sometimes or something like that. So yeah, I don't have a ton of experience with it. But it's all like going to be the same, right? Like when I'm developing my acne program, like I'm kind of telling people I'm like, it is devoted to acne this program, but it's going to help with psoriasis, it's going to help with eczema, it's probably going to help with conditions skin conditions like this, right? Because it's all relatively the same. Once we get our minerals back and balanced. You know, once we're actually nourishing our body once we're supporting our adrenals and reducing our stress load, once we're supporting detoxification organs, all of its going to come together, right, and it's all gonna essentially heal you so yeah, I mean, if you're suffering from really dry skin like this, like this condition, like definitely look into thyroid health, honestly, very see that highly correlated. And of course, like, I mean, you can do as much money on your face and as much moisturizer but it only kind of gets you so far. Yeah.

Matthew Blackburn 1:06:59
This is a fun one, "What kind of water is best to drink?"

Katie McKersie 1:07:06
Yeah, oh my God, there's so many different different things out there. Like some people are like spring waters, the best and whatever. But I personally like the filter that I usually recommend to people is either like, AquaTru or the Pristine Hydro one. But like, to me, I'm just gonna get what you have available to you, you know what I mean? Like, although I don't think the Berkey is the best filter out there, right at all. But if that's all you have access to, and that's all you have access to, it's still gonna be better than top water. So I tried to get people not to stress too much about that as well. I know water is like way more your thing. But yeah, I just think doing the best that you can with with what you have available.

Matthew Blackburn 1:07:53
I love that approach. Yeah. Yeah, for years, I just did the five gallon jugs and I found a water store. And I often tell people, if you can do that, that's the best because they probably have a better water filter, you know, until you can invest a grand or whatever. In a decent one, you know?

Katie McKersie 1:08:09
Yeah. Yeah, no, exactly. Like, yeah, at the end of the day, just make sure you're not taking top water. That's kind of my thought on it. And if you can afford a good quality water filter, like the Pristine Hydro One, or even like, I some people don't really agree with this, but like an RO system and just adding some of the minerals back in. I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea, either. I think that's what I do at my cottage like it's in my family doesn't my cottage, and I'm a fan of that one as well.

Matthew Blackburn 1:08:40
Great. Let's see, "Is acne at all genetic?

Katie McKersie 1:08:46
Yeah, I mean, like, genetics are definitely not the whole picture. And it's sucks that like, that's gets so much blame for so many conditions, or just genetics, but it really goes the same way. Right? Like your environment is gonna kind of pull the trigger of what you do with your lifestyle. Like, if you want to accept, you know, that standard American diet your whole life, and you have the the previous genes kind of exposing you to certain conditions like acne or whatever, then, yeah, you're probably gonna go back in your whole life. But it's not to say that you can't, you know, you can't go against the norm like that at all. So, I mean, could be potentially, but I mean, would I go off of that if I was suffering with acne? Absolutely not.

Matthew Blackburn 1:09:35
Yeah, I'm actually having a show next week on genetics. It'll be really fun. Because it's, I feel like there's so much focus on epigenetics, but not a lot on like, you know, I think because it is a piece is a factor, but -

Katie McKersie 1:09:48
Yeah

Matthew Blackburn 1:09:48
I don't know much about us. It'd be fun to learn.

Katie McKersie 1:09:51
Yeah, yeah. That's what I'd say too. Like it's a factor for sure, but it's definitely not - it's definitely not the biggest factor. If that makes sense.

Matthew Blackburn 1:09:59
Mhm. We had a few questions on facials like, do you think they're helpful? Do you think they're a must? I'm sure there's like different quality places you go to

Katie McKersie 1:10:08
Yeah, just don't ever do it. Honestly, if you get like a facial done like twice a year, I think that's awesome. Like what I've heard, I don't really get facials. But what I personally do is, I really recommend often to my clients is having hot baths weekly, or saunas on pretty regular basis, like, hopefully, they can do it a few times a week. And they can even optimize it by taking like a Cell Core binder beforehand, or some activated charcoal beforehand and then replenishing the water minerals afterwards, but getting some sort of like scraping tool or like exfoliation tool in the bath with you and kind of remove some of that dead skin. And I think that is way more beneficial, beneficial, in my opinion. Yeah, just because it has so many other benefits, too, right? Like, yeah, facials do help with circulation and kind of bringing oxygen to your skin. But so do hot baths and so do saunas, and they help loads with detoxification, and they kind of open your pores to release all that debris and all the dead skin cells and kind of help to get you in that parasympathetic state. So that's probably like, almost always in my client protocols is make sure you're sweating, at least every single week, not necessarily for exercise, like intense exercise, but at least through like a hot bath or something like that.

Matthew Blackburn 1:11:30
That's awesome. Yeah, I'm glad you brought up sweating. That's something we didn't talk about. I've been like, buying those wooden saunas for years and then I sold it when I moved multiple times, but they were a huge part of my healing journey with my skin. Like when I started supplementing Vitamin E, I think I was taking, I don't know, like, three, four or 5000 international units a day during my loading phase for like a year because I was raised on soy and PUFA's and I went out to eat with my friends multiple times a week, you know, entire childhood and stuff. So I know I got loaded up with with canola and stuff and taking Vitamin E started to cause me to break out and just using the sauna every day, because doing an hour a day, which is pretty intensive. But that cleared my skin in like three months. And it was just it seemed like it was getting worse and then I added in the sauna and it started to get better. So really interesting,

Katie McKersie 1:12:32
Yeah no, that's like my literally my biggest tip for people in acne, like once you kind of get the foundations down the nutrient side of things, the environment side of things, you start changing your lifestyle. You can never go wrong with adding in saunas or hot baths or some sort of way that you'd like to, to, you know, start sweating and getting some of those toxins out.

Matthew Blackburn 1:12:54
Do you recommend specific saunas because there's like, steam saunas, there's dry saunas, there's the you know, the far infrared there's like all the different types, there's the tent ones.

Katie McKersie 1:13:08
Yeah, I mean, what you have access to is is gonna be better than nothing the steam ones definitely are as beneficial in my opinion. More along like the infrared side would be a little bit more beneficial. But yeah, I mean, in my opinion, any way that you can get yourself sweating is going to be better than the not

Matthew Blackburn 1:13:31
Yeah, notice that the barrel woodburning saunas a lot more intense than electric far infrared panels I use free shares like for some reason

Katie McKersie 1:13:41
Oh yes

Matthew Blackburn 1:13:41
Multiple times more intense.

Katie McKersie 1:13:43
Oh my gosh, yeah, my boyfriend. He has a cottage up north and he has the wood burning sauna and I cannot last the he lasts literally an hour in there. I can't even I can't do like more than 10 minutes I'm dying

Matthew Blackburn 1:13:59
Yeah, I've tried like bringing the adrenal cocktail and quinton and I think minerals definitely help like I don't recommend drinking distilled water in there.

Katie McKersie 1:14:08
No, I've passed out from that before actually, I fainted after a sauna from just not just drinking plain water like before I really knew anything. And I fainted afterwards so yeah, definitely get your minerals in

Matthew Blackburn 1:14:25
Let's see vitiligo same stuff is all these different names, right? For all these skin conditions.

Katie McKersie 1:14:32
Yeah, yeah. Again Yeah, I don't have like a ton of information on those specific like little very rare or more rare conditions like, I mainly deal with the the acne and the psoriasis and stuff that I'm like, kind of familiar with from my journey and all of that, but yeah, I think that one I think that would maybe an autoimmune disorder as well. Just like a lack of pigment in that like a melanin in the skin. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's gonna it's gonna come down to really nourishing all your systems as well and that one definitely probably working on some intestinal permeability.

Matthew Blackburn 1:15:12
Have you ever experimented with copper, GHK, like, peptides? Like someone's asking for acne scars?

Katie McKersie 1:15:21
Yeah, I haven't personally experienced any of that but acne scars I'm really talking about you'd like to dissolve, it all helps so so much red light therapy, Vitamin E, or progesterone, doing those three things that'll help a ton along with the diet portion as well. That's probably my best recommendation for acne scars, because I've seen such amazing effects from doing literally that protocol and in my clients with with scars, kind of the clients that have already got rid of their acne.

Matthew Blackburn 1:15:52
I don't I don't know if we talked about this earlier. But when when we're talking about constipation and bowel movements, we had a ton of questions seemed like 10 or 15, on how to how to poop every day. I know like magnesium status can play a role, right? And stress.

Katie McKersie 1:16:10
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But we always got to think of like, it's your, it comes down to your thyroid, and it comes down to your metabolism, right. Like your whole, your digestive system is slow because your your underactive in terms of your thyroid, right. So stress can definitely 100% cause that for sure, or, you know, not getting enough minerals can definitely cause that, you know, gut infections can for sure cause that like, there's a lot of different kind of, I guess, moving parts to this one. Birth control, that's definitely what caused it for me and antibiotics and other pharmaceuticals that really just take your body, just bring your body down, right, and so building it back up. So that's where I would focus on with constipation, don't necessarily, like if you're drinking enough water and eating enough fiber, like, don't stress that it really comes down to your metabolism on more of like a side level and kind of building that back up. And I guess my biggest tip for supporting your metabolism and supporting your thyroid is going to be keeping everything balanced. It hates the extreme. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't, you never want to go to the extreme with anything, you want to make sure you're getting enough carbohydrates. You want to make sure you have enough protein in a fats bioavailable protein stable fats and some more food carbohydrates. And that is going to support your thyroid if you start cutting out mass groups of foods, especially like sugar, or, you know, cut out dairy, your minerals are probably going to start to go all wild. And yeah, you're just kind of taking it to the extreme. You don't really want to do that in terms of metabolic health.

Matthew Blackburn 1:17:49
Yeah, you could look good for a while, right? And I was fasting 23 hours a day I looked great, but I didn't. You know, it didn't last.

Katie McKersie 1:17:59
I know. Yeah, that's the thing and I think that's a lot of the arguments that probably we both get on Instagram. It's like, I like maybe it was Vitamin D and I feel great. I'm like, "Okay, well, that's great for you."

Matthew Blackburn 1:18:12
Feel great now, right? Yeah

Katie McKersie 1:18:15
Yeah, for now. Exactly. But I just can't fight with them.

Matthew Blackburn 1:18:21
On that, on that topic of, you know, regular bowel movements every day. I know. Some people are huge proponents of like, they swear by like walking after every meal, like a short 10 minute walk or something after you eat every time. Have you done that? Or heard of that or thought about it? Or?

Katie McKersie 1:18:41
Yeah, no, I think that's awesome. Definitely would help with digestion, for sure. With intestinal motility definitely. Probably help with some blood sugar and blood pressure as well. So yeah, I don't think that's about it as well. I don't really think any sort of movement is bad. You know what I mean? Like, I don't ever really recommend in well, not ever, but I don't typically recommend intense exercise, like I - again, we don't want to take it to the extreme, but just from like, my clients, at least, like we need to kind of get them moving more. So anytime that they can (unintelligible) me I think it's a great option as well.

Matthew Blackburn 1:19:19
Yeah, it's easy if you have a homestead you're forced to move.

Katie McKersie 1:19:23
Yeah, exactly. But even I forget sometimes, like I just get, you know, so caught up in my work and just like in my desk, and there's not even much sun. I don't have a window in my office. So and I'm like, "Well, I gotta like, listen to my own recommendations."

Matthew Blackburn 1:19:40
Yeah. That's what's life, I think. Yeah.

Katie McKersie 1:19:44
Yeah.

Matthew Blackburn 1:19:46
"What are the best electrolytes to use?" A bunch of people asked.

Katie McKersie 1:19:51
Yeah, so I've used a bunch of in the past, I mean, trace mineral drops. I've used those for quite some years. I think that's great. Just like some whey flaky sea salt, magnesium bicarbonate. I don't typically and some people recommend the like, the pineapple like, I feel it's called the bumble brand or something. I don't know I kind of tried to stay away from the powders even like the more cleaner ones. I just don't really think it's necessary I think a little bit of sea salts and trace mineral drops. And some magnesium bicarbonate I think that goes a long way.

Matthew Blackburn 1:20:27
Yeah recently I experimented with potassium because that's an interesting one. Like, there, you know, I forget the RDA, so like 4000 milligrams or something. Something crazy.

Katie McKersie 1:20:43
Yeah.

Matthew Blackburn 1:20:44
I tried like potassium citrate capsules and what's interesting is that converts to bicarbonate. And so I noticed if I took like a gram of those each capsules, like 200 milligrams, it like, stopped my digestion. Like I had some, I feel like it shut off my hydrochloric acid or neutralized it and so I learned to like take that in between meals. But yeah, potassium bicarbonate didn't work for me that, you know, gave me loose stool. That's like, it's tricky. When you start working with those isolates, you really have to experiment and find the form that works for you.

Katie McKersie 1:21:19
Yeah, exactly. And that's when it comes down to it, like Whole Foods is always going to be beneficial, right? Because it's not in in isolation. So like, if you want to just drink coconut water, I mean, just add some of that to your water bottle every single day. Like that's huge for electrolytes

Matthew Blackburn 1:21:37
And you grow those up here in North Idaho

Katie McKersie 1:21:40
Oh for real?

Matthew Blackburn 1:21:46
Yeah, usually most places you can buy those young Thai coconuts now and then usually ship raw coconut water, you know, around the world. So yeah

Katie McKersie 1:21:55
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I know. Yeah. None of this stuff is really available in most places. But -

Matthew Blackburn 1:22:01
Yeah, I think some people use like aloe vera, right for potassium and there's different sources. I think some people are using like tart cherry now and -

Katie McKersie 1:22:09
Yeah, yeah, like apricots are super high in potassium. I'm like interested in aloe I do like using it, but I find you got to get the inner fillet aloe juice. Yeah, you've gotta you gotta get that one because the outer like the whole fillet one the outer crop portion husk gets a lot of people loose stools, I've been realizing there's like some sort of toxin in it.

Matthew Blackburn 1:22:33
Yeah, my childhood home that I grew up in for 20 years, we had a bunch of aloe plants that just were unlimited, they just grew insanely fast and I had acne on my inner arms and it was just so itchy and irritated. My mom would always cut a leaf off and, you know, before I go to sleep, like a little routine, she'd rub it on my arms that instantly soothe but I wish I would have taken it internally as well. It probably would have helped so much.

Katie McKersie 1:23:01
Yeah, I feel like people forget about it all the time that you can take it internally honestly. And for rosacea to like if you can find an alcohol free aloe, even topically that was a game changer for my rosacea just to help soothe it like because you'd get flares from certain things like a some people get flares from like spicy foods or chocolate or or whatever, right when they're kind of in the healing state and to calm some of those flares down like alcohol free aloe was really, really beneficial.

Matthew Blackburn 1:23:31
That's awesome. Yeah, someone asked about oxalate dumping, and if that's real, and seems like that's kind of a scare thing, right? Like potatoes have oxalates don't eat them.

Katie McKersie 1:23:42
Yeah, I know. Yeah. No, I don't recommend I mean, I don't like recommend something with like grains powders or anything like that with with tons of oxalates. But yeah, people just love to take things to the extreme, I find, and that's just not what your body needs. Honestly.

Matthew Blackburn 1:24:02
Lets just do a few more here, "Are silk pillowcases beneficial or are they a scam?"

Katie McKersie 1:24:09
No, I think they're really beneficial. For sure. You always got to remember like, your it's the chances of your acne being caused by a dirty pillowcase or you know, a non silk pillowcase or a towel that you haven't cleaned every single day like I used to remember clean, like my towel will throw them in the wash. Like every like twice a day, sometimes. I was like showering twice a day or whatever and I'm just like, it just it doesn't really get you very far. It's always going to be an internal issue. I mean, it can cause maybe a little bit more irritation or flare ups or whatever but that's not the true cause to your acne. So just remember that but I am a fan of silk pillowcases I do have one myself it it definitely helps with like the bed head in the morning.

Matthew Blackburn 1:24:58
Yeah, I remember I went through some healing phases where I was just sweating every night when I slept. And I know that could be like a symptom, like detoxing or systems resetting. And that's when I was like really on like washing my bedsheets more frequently.

Katie McKersie 1:25:16
Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely like, could be like detoxing some estrogen, for sure.

Matthew Blackburn 1:25:24
Yeah, I'm sure I got a lot of that I was mega dosing soy.

Katie McKersie 1:25:28
Oh, yeah. That'll do it

Matthew Blackburn 1:25:32
Let's see if there's any other ones here. Let's see, scarring, he said Vitamin E. Yeah, I think you covered all of them. I think if, if people want to learn more, like a lot of these are very specific -- things but your website's holistico.ca, right.

Katie McKersie 1:25:56
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I have so much information on there. I really tried to like, spend a lot of time building out those pages that people can kind of have sources to go to that isn't just on Instagram, because it's kind of hard to find things on Instagram, when you like, post so much. And like, who knows, I can delete my account at any time. So yeah, I tried to really put a lot of information on my website to help people and for sources to kind of refer back to.

Matthew Blackburn 1:26:23
That's great. Yeah, all you have to do is mention methylene blue and get kicked off

Katie McKersie 1:26:28
I know I know, between you and Adam, I saw that all that craziness. He can't even like put it on his website. I don't think

Matthew Blackburn 1:26:34
It's a question mark. Yeah,

Katie McKersie 1:26:36
Yeah. Oh, my god. It's so insane.

Matthew Blackburn 1:26:39
And then you have you have a tik tok, too, right? No, I'm just kidding

Katie McKersie 1:26:44
Yeah I had to get rid of that. But I might go back one day, but I just need a break.

Matthew Blackburn 1:26:51
Yeah, it kinda gets crazy. Awesome. Well, yeah, Katie, this was really fun. I appreciate you, sharing all your wisdom. And as you mentioned, you have a program coming out soon, right? When's that going to be out?

Katie McKersie 1:27:05
Yeah, so I'm hoping for a launch in the fall. It's called, "The Acne Solution". So you can go on my website and get on the waitlist for that and you'll get like a notification when it launches, and you'll get access to the earlybird registration and everything. But yeah, it's basically done now, I'm just going to wrapping up some parts and then I got to kind of build out it on my website. But yeah, I'm excited. So sometime in the fall, not a concrete day.

Matthew Blackburn 1:27:30
Awesome. Yeah. Those are the kind of ETAs that I'd give, it safer.

Katie McKersie 1:27:35
Yeah, I know. I'm like I don't know. I dont want to give a for sure date and then not make it

Matthew Blackburn 1:27:40
People get angry. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks, Katie. This was fun. Stick around so we close out the show.

Katie McKersie 1:27:50
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Matthew Blackburn 1:27:59
That is all for today's show. I love Katie's simple approach and that less is more idea, especially in the beginning. Even if someone gets 95% improvement, that last 5%, could be tweaking supplements, and really fine tuning it. It's probably not realistic to go from having severe cystic acne, or tons of eczema to absolutely none - in a few months, or even six months or even a year, I think it's a long journey. That's been my experience with skin health - and it's such a deep issue, especially if you've had it for several years, that it will take time and consistency with a routine to see improvement. I love that she's a huge fan of sweating in a sauna. That's been really invaluable for me. That's why I'm really passionate about protocols and devices and practices, because oftentimes food is not enough. You need to combine it with these other things. Even if it's a sauna, sweating in a sauna, which, in my view, is a device. I did find it interesting what Katie said about blue light, and how long term blue light, only exposure disrupts the skin microbiome. And I wonder if the effects are different if it's combined with say visible red and infrared, which is the counter to blue light. If that would still have the same effect. I have a full body light here called The Soluna. And you can get one that's just for the face that wraps around the face. And that one uses a combination of blue, red, and infrared. But what's interesting is it pulses at I believe 10 Hertz. And I've used that light in the winter here in North Idaho and it always gives me a boost of energy, I really like it. So if you want to dive into Katie's work, you can check out holistico.ca. I'll put the link below to that. And she's about to launch a acne program called, "The Acne Solution". So if you click that on the website and put in your email, you'll be notified when that goes live. But until then, she has a lot of great information on her social media, and website about how to improve your skin health and you can at least get started with that. And if you want to support me in the show, you can go to matt-blackburn.com. I have my CLF protocol, recipes, and all of my recommended products. Now that we're well into the summer, and most days, up here, where I live are in the low 90s; I'm feeling the pull to get back on the Aloevera. When you go to the health food store, it's really difficult to find high quality ingestible aloe, it's all at room temperature and it's usually packed with preservatives. What's really cool about this one is they ship it frozen. And so you thaw them out as you drink them. I think if anyone's experiencing skin or intestinal issues, this is a great place to start and it's a great experiment to see if you see or feel benefit from taking it. And my company is MITOLIFE you can find that at mitolife.co. And really exciting updates on the way - by the end of summer, almost all of the products will have gotten an overhaul and an upgrade and new products are coming out very soon. And I'm developing ones that will probably be out at the start of winter that I'm really excited about - little teaser is that we're going to start providing powders that you can add to your smoothies and elixirs. So stay tuned for that and if you want to learn more about my work and keep updated with my research, you can head over to YouTube and the MITOLIFE Academy. I put out two private videos every month. And the last day of the month I do a live question and answer session where you can ask me anything. And I talked about my latest thoughts on overall health and supplementation and protocols. So I'll see you guys next Friday and stay supercharged.