Josh Ruben 2 | Mitolife Radio Ep #176
people, eat, donate, morley, iron, supplements, full monty, copper, hemoglobin, retinol, blood, play, months, ferritin, work, josh, years, adrenal, potassium, find
Matthew Blackburn 00:19
You're listening to Episode 176 of Mitolife Radio. I'm your host, Matt Blackburn and today I have returning to the show Josh Ruben of East West Healing, most commonly known as realfoodgangstas, on Instagram. So when I started to listen to Atom Bergstrom and Ray Peat, with over two years ago, Josh Ruben was one of the first people I found in that community. And he introduced me to the no diet lifestyle or concept. And he's been a real inspiration over the years just to always return to balance, and to make sure to rest and take breaks from research. And he talks about that a little bit in this interview, this obsession with researching and data, and labs and symptoms, and how that can really negatively affect our health, when they're over done, and out of balance with going outside and supporting your nervous system in all the different ways with human interaction, and play, which is just as important as an adult, as he talks about. But Josh talks about iron quite a bit and he shares his vulnerable story of the health conditions that he was experiencing, and then finding Morley around 2013 - 2014, and how that started to turn his health around implementing a lot of these ideas. So he talks about iron chelater, supplements and their potential use, what high ferritin means. He talks about the fear of PUFAs and how that's gotten out of control. He challenges the idea that everyone is overloaded with iron and needs to donate blood. So he talks about being iron overloaded versus having an iron recycling problem. Talk about the adrenal cocktail, talk about what to do if you have low hemoglobin, I asked him his thoughts on eating only local and seasonally. And he shares his thoughts on why people gain weight going on the, "Pro Metabolic Lifestyle" So this is a really fun show. I really appreciate Josh and his grounded approach and that he doesn't worship any one guru. Like me, he takes from a bunch of different people and he mostly goes from experience and working with clients, One-on-one. So enjoy the show, here is Josh Ruben. All right, Josh Ruben, welcome back to the show.
Josh Ruben 03:31
Thanks, dude. Thanks for having me again.
Matthew Blackburn 03:34
Yeah, I forget how many we done? I think this might only be our third or fourth or something like that.
Josh Ruben 03:39
Either third or fourth.
Matthew Blackburn 03:41
Yeah, it's been a while. It's overdue. It seems like you're always researching and posting awesome stuff, mostly on Instagram, right? YouTube as well.
Josh Ruben 03:54
We do YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. I mean, we post to YouTube every week but Instagram is definitely our hub and we only put out emails probably four to five days a week on our lists. So we got a lot going on, man. I feel like my head spinning. Which way's north? I need more of your bathtub rocks to show me.
Matthew Blackburn 04:13
Yeah, I'm excited to hopefully use that lodestone tub this weekend. It's been a long project. But yeah, we were chatting, I don't know, it was two or three months ago about having this conversation about your journey with iron overload. And you found Morley Robbins several years before I did. And you said he saved your life, right?
Josh Ruben 04:46
I mean, he did and he's become a great friend and I talked to him pretty frequently and -- when did this first happen? This is back when I was doing CrossFit, I was competing, I was training two hours a day. When I qualified for competition Miami, I was doing two, two hour sessions a day. And that's kind of when shit hit the fan. To say that CrossFit was the reason of course, that's the view everyone they put their binoculars on and like blaming one thing. It's not, it was a accumulation of things that happened probably over that past 10 years and even in high school, like playing hockey, I had a few major head traumas. But the bottom line is like going through the process of just health. Yes, I was eating food and meeting my needs. I was - I've researched a lot of people over the years and of course, at the time, I was really into Ray Peat and researching him, and many other people. But yeah, I was eating the foods to meet my needs, I would say, from my view, now, it was missing a few things. I was - this was like, 2013, maybe I was taking low dose D drops. I was doing the eggshell calcium. And this is I'm really shortening the story here but long story short, it was about I think, was 2013ish. My wife started sayinng me, "Are you okay?" she kept asking me this. And I guess at the time looking back, I was so in denial. But my body was in such pain and I'm just like, well maybe it's because I'm working out so much but it was a different type of pain. Like, you know when you push up to get out of a seat, like that was a level 50 out of 10 pain, like I was in chronic pain. My hair was starting to fall out, I had no energy, I had a nap during the day, I was constipated and had no libido, I was depressed. I couldn't put my thoughts together. So after a few months of my wife asking me that, and me finally saying, you know what, I honestly feel like I'm dying. Like, I've never really shared this story in the open. This is honestly my first time doing it. Not because I'm trying to hide anything but it's just been really private, because to be honest with you is a very traumatic time in my life, because I really thought I was going to die and it was before I had Harrison, and I'm like thinking, going to have a child and what we want to like work towards having a child and I feel like I'm dying, and am I going to die like, I would get these crazy abdominal cramps that would like, throw me on the ground and have to stretch for 10 minutes, crazy back spasms. I mean, and I knew something was wrong, like in my heart and like something is wrong with me. So I go to the doctor. And of course, he start running labs. And at the time, because I was doing CrossFit and this has been going on my entire life. But the doctor accused me of taking steroids and she's like, that's why you're like this. I'm like, I don't even really take supplements. I'm taking vitamin D and not taking steroids. And she kept accusing me and taking steroids but long story short, after about six months of lab testing, test after test, come back in three months test set the test it showed that my thyroid values like shut down. My testosterone was like 50, right? It should be at my age, 600 - 700 Somewhere in there. My cholesterol was like in the four hundreds, my triglycerides when the three hundreds, my hemoglobin was 21. My iron SAT was 65. I was inflamed to the max and at the same time, they did find two - they finally ended up doing an MRI because my prolactin was like six times normal value. Right. And prolactin is obviously it's used but when it's excess, it's very inflammatory, and it's going to shut down any type of endocrine system like your testosterone, like your thyroid, etc. and cause a lot of inflammation. So they found two pituitary, little, adenomas is in my pituitary, right. So essentially the like little brain tumors they're essentially calcifications, and there's not a ton out there on this, but the bottom line is, in the end, they were like, you have fatty liver, they did an ultrasound, of course, it makes sense. And I'm like, "Well, what do we do about all this?" We have eight months of lab tests, we have an MRI, and they're like, I don't know. I don't know what to do - I was seeing a hematologist, endocrinologist, every ologists you know, and no one could tell me anything. So that's when I was like, I had this desperate moment of like, 24 hours, like, "What am I gonna do?" And then I was like, "You know what, I know what the fuck to do." I'm going to do what I usually do and start researching it. And it was interesting, because at the time I was, through my years, I've collected and bought a lot of books. So I was selling a few things and it was literally within the same week I found Morley Robbins online like 2013 - 14. I was selling these CDs of EFT. Everyone thinks EFT is new, I mean, I was studying in 2002, from like one of the originators Gary something, I was selling this guy Robert Doris ton of CD. So I meet him, we started talking, and he's an RCP practitioner. He's friends with Morley he studied Morley's work, I still talk to him to this day. And that sent me down the Morley Robbins rabbit hole. And to make a long story short, because super long, I ended up really studying his work for a good four to five years before I took his course is RCP course, because I really wanted to understand his work because it's so complex, like people think his work is complex, his course is even more complex. So I studied and I started to change my nutrition, dropped the D, I brought in more fish and organ meats and I was still eating carbs but I pulled back a little because I wasn't working out as much. I really didn't supplement with much so I really locked my nutrition in for good four to six months. And then I started adding some iron chelators because my ferritin was 997. 997. We know, for instance, a protein that's loaded with iron via ceruloplasmin and when it doesn't have enough copper, there's inflammation, the cell essentially spits into the blood, it shouldn't be in the blood. So anytime you see how ferritin is correlated with other values, like hemoglobin, iron sat, etc, you know that not only there's an iron recycling problem, but there's tissue pathology because of that excess iron floating around because of the ferritin that can be degraded into hemosiderin, etc. So I didn't donate blood, right then, I started taking some iron chelating supplements that I researched from studying Morley's work and I did the supplements for probably a good two to three months, then I started donating blood. So it was about a year into the process. I donated blood and I still donate blood every 56 days and I've done it since 2014. But to summarize this, from start date, to end date of labs, of nutrition, chelating supplements and donating blood, it took me three and a half years to get my hemoglobin my iron sat, my ferritin, everything all within a normal range. I mean, did I feel better along the way 100% The first time I donated blood, I walked out of there and I said I literally call my wife and I said, "Holy shit, I feel normal." I literally drove home, I ate a ton of food because I had no appetite. I had a ton of energy so I knew I was onto something and then I'm like, this is the shit, like Morley Robbins stuff is the shit. And I know a lot of people are so obsessed with other people but I feel like the only way we can evolve is to really learn from everyone because you can learn something from everyone. I love Ray's work, I don't agree with his D. That doesn't mean I'm not going to study his work. I love Morley's work, but there's certain things I don't agree with them on and that's okay. The guy is incredible and he backs everything up with a shit ton of research. But for me, I don't care about the research because I went through it, I experienced his work and that's what made me start to incorporate it with clients because I not only studied it for a good three to four years before working with clients and using a little bit here and there on our own way, but I went through it myself personally, and I experienced it. And to this day, like I said the dude saved my life, along the way, of course just chatting with him because I don't know where I would have been because doctors didn't know what to do. So, that was kind of my story and of course, pituitary adenoma is gone, my thyroid is fine. Everything's fine. I got the libido of a 19 year old, more good. It's all that matters - no I'm just kidding. Imagine you are but it's - I think for some people, it's an important piece and when you have a child and you want to be able to play and have fun and do things with him, participate. It was a challenge because I'm just like, even when he was born, I was still struggling and I was in a lot of pain, but you gotta put that aside. But finding Morley's work was a huge piece to my healing puzzle because if I just follow Paul's work, or Dr. Timmons work, or any functional medicine practitioner, or Ray Peat's work, I would have never gotten where I am today because what would I have done? The same thing I was doing, I was already doing it.
Matthew Blackburn 15:05
Yeah, that's an incredible story and I appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing that the first part there. Because being it's - it's not easy for people like us that are health educators talking about the issues that we have or had, because we just get torn apart by people saying you don't have the right to talk about health.
Josh Ruben 15:28
Right and I mean, I don't agree with those people, because anyone could talk about anything they want and help anyone. That doesn't mean, if you're going to talk about breast cancer that you've had have breast cancer. I mean, where would this world be if that's how we lived. But I've gone through a lot just like everyone else, I'm not Superman, I don't claim to be Superman and the reason I feel like we educate the way we educate is because of experience, not only 22 years of experience, but just really going through the work ourselves whether it's physically, emotionally physiologically. Same thing with Jeanne and I think when you really experience something, and I always say this, it's like, there's so many people trying to teach people how to ride a bike, but they don't even know how to ride a bike themselves. And it becomes really challenging when you have a program, and you're trying to teach people how to do this stuff but you don't work one on one with people, or you have never worked one on one with people, or you've worked one on one people for one month, you don't have the experience to do that and this is why this industry is so confused because there's so many people, I know this is bold, but it's just my experience doesn't mean it's true but there's so many people trying to teach people how to ride a bike, but they don't know how to ride a bike. Imagine trying to teach someone how to ride a bike, and telling them how to do it, but you don't know how to do it. You know much confusion that would cause and this is why there's so much confusion. So for me, it was like, I've always gravitated towards people that live the work but don't just preach it and then it's not like I just study Morley and Ray and now people think that - but there's so many people that I read and study that influence our work that we do that are just pioneers in the industry. I mean, one of them if you've never heard of Adelle Davis, I mean, you studied her work, it's not like super deep, but her stuff is incredible. And it really just comes back to like food is medicine and stress causes disease and ABCD. I don't know, I just feel like, a lot of us just have to just drop our resistance to certain people like, of course, I'm talking like Ray Peat people think Morley's a quack and vice versa, you can learn something from everyone. And for me, I feel like that's why I've learned a lot because I'm open to learning from anyone.
Matthew Blackburn 17:48
Yeah, I really appreciate that about you. And you said something earlier, like you said, you don't care about the research and it's more about working with clients and having that personal experience. And the research studies are, are helpful, right? And it's kind of a good peace of mind that there's backing to the information but I think people like worship them. I mean, we've seen that the last two years, with the world situation. But I just noticed on like social media, people battle with studies and you - from what I can see as even with ceruloplasmin, you could prove whatever you want, like there's studies to show and prove whatever your view is.
Josh Ruben 18:29
Yeah, and that's the thing, right? And that's why there's so many different views, like between vegans and meat eaters, and whatever. You want to make the dairy eaters and non dairy eaters, and I'm not saying research is invalid, and it is at times, but for people to make their decisions about their health just on research. I think you're missing the point. You know what I mean? It's like saying, "We did research on 500 people, and it was this type of study and we found that for every single one of them standing up in front of people and doing a talk was super easy." If we just went off that and we started talking in front of people, we know, and I'm just speaking from experience, because me and Jeanne were very opposite. Some people do very well speaking in front of people, and some people do not. So when you talk about experience, I think we really have to step back and say the research is great, but who's in front of me, and what is going on with that person? And what is going to work for that person? Because before we know what if we just focus on the research, all we're doing is taking supplements and cutting out food. And I think we just have to get back to the basics, a lot of people. I mean, that's what I did, I got back to the food, I got back to the basics. I stopped working out, I started to just get outside more, I couldn't do much my capacity to do anything was very limited. I sat outside a lot, I did a lot of breath work, I did a lot of stretching, and I gave my body space to heal and who knows, like what if I read research to say that I needed to do ABC and D? Well, then I'm not really meeting my needs. I'm not honoring who I am and where I'm at and what I need. So I think there's a time and a place for research, but to put all your eggs in one basket, and make every decision based on that, like, what's her name does, Rhonda and a few other people. It's just, it doesn't make sense to me. Like, I think we have to find that middle ground of like, okay, all you do is theoretical stuff. All you do is research stuff, let's find the middle ground and say, how do we support the person in front of us first, just saying, well, all you got to do is sit in the sun and it's on your butthole. Or, on the other end of it, all you got to do is take vitamin D and all these supplements and you're going to heal because research said so. How do we find that middle ground?
Matthew Blackburn 20:51
That's great. That and you said, you brought in more fish and organ meats. Last week, I ate fish because I visited my family for my dad's birthday down in San Diego. And I just ended up having seafood for like four nights in a row and I had oysters, I had salmon and I felt incredible. And the Ray Peat people, pro metabolic would say that's too much PUFA, only once a week or twice a week, but my body was craving it. And I don't know if it was the iodine or the selenium or whatever but my body wanted more seafood. And that's probably because I wasn't eating it for the last, several years because of Ray Peat's information on polyunsaturated fats. But same thing with liver and organ meats, it's like, you're gonna get vitamin A toxicity. There's kind of fear wherever you go.
Josh Ruben 21:41
Yeah, I mean, I think if you make every decision based on fear, it's not health, no matter how healthy you think it is. The last time I worked with someone that died or got sick from eating PUFAs, was never -- and I've been doing this 22 years. I'm not saying it's not a piece but there's two things I want to talk about here. And this is one of the reasons why I love Ray's work, because in the beginning, his approach was refreshing. It was all about food, and how do you meet your body's needs with food, to de-stress and increase pregnenolone, etc. And then it turned into biohacking. How do you use supplements to biohack the system to bioenergize it. And I'm not saying PUFAs aren't a piece of the puzzle but in the beginning, it was like, PUFAs made their way into the scene, when we started to get more processed foods, we saw the soybean oils and the nut oils and stuff and the crackers and the cookies and the Cheerios and all these things. And we started to see the vegetable oils and the canola oils and all these oils that are being cooked with - that was the PUFA and somehow that bled into salmon is gonna fucking kill you because it's loaded with PUFA don't eat salmon. I mean, the just - the insanity of that is just craziness and it bled into all these other things. So for me, I agree, processed foods that contain these nut and seed oils -- using those oils to cook, that is dangerous. But here's the kicker, if you eat and live in health 80 to 90% of the time, and you go out to eat and you do that 1% of the time, it shouldn't have an effect on you. If it does, then you have a problem with how you're creating health. It's not as strong as you think. Do I go sometimes with my son and we get milkshake and fries? Sure we do. Is it from Mrs. gold leaf organic, biodynamic french fry-ville, it's not, Is it from McDonald's? It is not. Is it in the middle? Sure. Is it fried in coconut oil? Definitely not. I don't even know what it's fried in and I really don't care. Because it's a fun experience for my son. We do it once in a blue moon and we eat and live in enough health that I'm able to support that. But I do believe that PUFA piece is a problem. But to say that proteins and fish and fatty fish like salmon, mackerel and herring, or dangerous, is just absolutely insane. Now, of course, I'm not here to speak for that population and if they want to think that, I've been doing this 22 years, I really - it doesn't bother me at all, to each their own. But I'm here to tell people that health is about creating balance. It's about finding what works for you within your environment, within your life, within your family structure, based on your culture that allows you to be happy, find joy, and create health at the same time. And that's going to look different for everyone. No one can walk around drinking milk and orange juice all day. It's not sustainable, and it's not possible and it's not even fun. Like who wants to do that? So I truly believe that it's again, we're Americans, we bastardize everything. We take everything to that OCD degree. We have to find the balance point. PUFAs, are they dangerous? Sure. Which ones are we talking about? But I truly believe having the shellfish, the white fish, the fatty fish are a huge piece like where else you're gonna get all that selenium? Where else you're gonna get all that retinol? Where else you're gonna get all the folate and B12 that you need if you can't eat organ meats? I mean, I've said this before people like B12 supplement, B12 injections. Eat three ounces of kidney a week, you'll get a shit ton a B12. You need CoQ10? Slow roast a heart, loaded with CoQ10. You need folate, you need other nutrients? Any organ meat but eat liver pate, eat desiccated liver. Any copper, eat these foods, eat the shellfish, the retinol, which is super important, we need the fatty fish. So we have to find that balance point. I'm not saying you need to be pounding fish and organ meats all day like Liver King. Again that's the other end of the spectrum. We have to find that balance point. And I think the other point I wanted to make and I'm not sure why I wanted to make this, maybe it was something you said but I think when it comes to health again, it's about extremes. And the problem is this whole iron thing and I was talking to Morley about this like two to three weeks ago on the phone. And he's kind of frustrated with it, is because it's gone to the place of everyone is iron overloaded and everyone needs to donate iron, which is false. I'll give an example, talk to a client yesterday - a new client, his ferritin, his hemoglobin his iron sat, list goes his total iron, everything, single digits. If he donated blood, it would probably kill him. Does even iron recycling problem? Yeah, but he needs to build. He needs to build big time. Another client today, she comes, she's in our group and you know, should I donate blood when we look at her Full Monty. She's having an iron recycling issues. Her retinol super low, her copper is kind of low, the ceruloplasmins low, the ratio is way off. Her ferritin is actually normal, her hemoglobin is low, her iron sat is low. Her iron is like 50, her total iron so if she donated blood, would it help her? No, it would not. She doesn't have an iron overload problem, she has an iron recycling problem. So when it comes to recycling systems, let's say and that includes energy production. It is really about relationships, it's about the relationship to - of retinol to copper. That is what it's about. Now, I'm not talking about blocking factors because of course, that's the first thing. If you want to support your energy systems, recycling systems, of course, things like taking iron and vitamin D and calcium and zinc affect copper metabolism, birth control pills, glyphosate, high fructose corn syrup, certain medications, blood pressure, high cholesterol, a lot of gut medications, antibiotics, colloidal silver, all these things blow up copper metabolism. So we have to remove - I'm not saying go off meds here, but we have to remove the blocking factors, but it really comes down to that relationship. So if we can't eat retinol rich foods because they're loaded with PUFA, how do we produce energy? I know the claim to fame is all you got to do is eat sugar, because that's going to make you produce energy. That's like saying, "All you got to do is put gas in your car and your car's gonna go." That's not true. You got to put oil in there - ABCDEFG, right? And when you look at the cell, of course, we're - yes, magnesium, yes, we're talking about thyroid hormone. But the most important thing when you look at the mitochondria, you're talking about complex. Well, we'll rewind a bit, but you're talking about complex foric, because you're talking about a cerulo-dependent piece of mitochondria that activates oxygen, if you don't activate oxygen, doesn't matter how much (unintelligible), doesn't matter how much glucose you have in this, that you're eating, you won't produce energy. So ceruloplasmin really activates that last step in the mitochondria so you can produce energy. How do we do that? We we rewind. Liver stores copper, retinol is carried to the liver on a protein called the TTR protein. This protein also carries T4. Is it weird that it's carrying T four and retinols go to the liver? No, because this is where thyroid receptors are and you convert a shit ton of T4, T3 and this is where your body - or I should say copper, uses our retinol and grabs on to copper in a sense and I'm kind of visualizing it for you. It loads it into ATP78 so you can essentially make bioavailable copper which is ceruloplasmin and you can only do that with retinol. No retinol, then people say you have anemia, you have a copper toxicity. You don't. You have a copper deficiency because you don't have enough retinol in your diet but of course there's blocking factors to that. It's not just eat retinol and you're going to metabolize copper. It's not that simple.
Matthew Blackburn 30:21
Yeah, those are great points. I know there's something called copper deficiency anemia. I think most people have never heard of that because I think anemia just means low iron, but it can mean low copper. And the retinol plays in there, like you said. I really liked that you brought up that that myth that everyone's iron overloaded and needs to donate blood to dump it. I mean, I wonder what percent of people like that client you mentioned because - or like that, because I grew up definitely with tons of Honey Nut Cheerios, Lucky Charms, Pop Tarts, Goldfish, all the iron overloaded snack grains for -- I don't know, probably two decades in my life, like at least 20 years of those iron foods. So I guess it just depends how many people did that. And I can't remember how many milligrams-
Josh Ruben 31:12
It's all person dependent, I'll be honest with you, I look at a lot of Full Monty's. And I say it's a good 75% don't need to donate right now. And that the good 25% that do. I have a client that has a ferritin of 2500. We have a serious California forest fire going on. So my goal is to help her build up as fast as possible, and get her to donate as fast as possible. And you don't want to donate first. I always tell people donating is like the PhD of the healing process. It's the last thing you do. Because it's a stress when you lose blood and if your body doesn't have enough minerals, if your body's hemoglobin, whatever you need, and you donate, guess what happens, it becomes a stress, you get tired, you get exhausted and your body reacts negatively, you should walk out of that blood donation and either feel nothing or feel like Superman and Superwoman for a few days. That is a good sign. So my goal with her is to get her to donate blood as soon as we can but we still focus on food first and minerals and building her up. But I always tell people, like do the work and then maybe do a Full Monty. Because yes, most guys need to donate every 56 days. Most menopausal woman should donate every 56 days, cycling women, it depends usually one or two times a year. But if they have a ferritin level 2500, of course, they're gonna have to donate more. But I truly believe no matter where you are, you need to build up the system first, you can handle the demands of donating blood, work with the food, work with the minerals. Because we're all so quick to just dump iron. The problem is, if the recycling system isn't supported, if you don't have enough copper or retinol or minerals, all you're doing is getting rid of blood - excess iron, but you're going to build it right back up. So there's a point when people need to do it, but do a full Monty, assess where you're at, because like I said, there's certain people that I've worked with, if they donated, it really would have worked against them. Like this guy that I'm working with, I truly believe if he donated blood, it would literally kill him. I mean, his hemoglobin is like 5. His iron - total iron is like 10.
Matthew Blackburn 33:34
Wow. Since you mentioned hemoglobin, I've heard and then people message me saying, I can't donate because I have low hemoglobin, at seven or eight or whatever. I know chlorophyll builds that up. And I think Atom Bergstrom said like molasses and tomato juice or something. There's all these different things you could use. Would you say food?
Josh Ruben 33:54
Yeah, I mean, we put up a post this past week on Instagram about low hemoglobin. I think it was on Monday. I forget the date of that, which is like, what's today the 26th. So four days ago, it was 20th or the 21st, somewhere in there. But to really simplify it, the whole process of hemoglobin and etc, is a copper driven process. So it's interesting when you said chlorophyll helps. Well, it's the vegan way of getting copper. So when people don't low hemoglobin, and of course I always tell people this. You never want to bank any assessment onto one value. You don't want to just test your hemoglobin and say I have low copper. That's like going in, and getting your air pressure checked and then saying you need a sparkplug. It doesn't make any sense. You always need to look at all the iron recycling values to really get a good assessment. But yes, most people that uphold low hemoglobin will have low ceruloplasmin, low retinol, low copper, it's a severe copper deficiency. And really what they need to do, is they need to put in the work, to eat mineral rich foods. And I'm not gonna say pro metabolic because I just don't like that word, but eat mineral rich foods and meet their body's needs and stop focusing on just taking desiccated liver and desiccated kidney and cod liver oil. And not to say those things can't help but eat the food because you're gonna get so many more nutrients. And really work on building up your system so you can get your hemoglobin up. Unfortunately, most people want to get it up, when they're in their second trimester, and they want to give a - do a home birth. It's hard in the moment to just raise it but yes, of course copper rich foods, shellfish and organ meats and retinol rich foods. Your fatty fish, your dairy or eggs, your organ needs, your whole foods, sea rich foods because they contain tyrosinase, which stimulates your liver to produce ceruloplasmin. But also doing that in a way strategically to meet your metabolic needs, to take the burden off the adrenals because the adrenals play a role in stimulating ceruloplasmin and supporting the thyroid because T3 is an oxygen sensor, which stimulates liver to produce a ceruloplasmin. So there's a lot of things you can do to build it up. But it's not something - when you talk about all these fine recycling values -- I'll go back to what I said at the beginning, it took me three and a half years to regulate all of that. It takes time to regulate minerals and when you talk about hemoglobin, you're talking about minerals. So just ride the wave and enjoy what you're doing. Don't try to speed up the process and think, "Well, if I eat more or take more of the supplement, it's going to happen faster" because it wont. Yeah, I get a lot of questions from women saying, "Can I donate while pregnant or while nursing?" And it's wild. Someone emailed me last week and said that, I said, I think that would be - I forget what I said but it's like, I'm really into like human behavior right now. Because it's like, what would prompt someone to ask that question? And nothing against this person because I get asked by many people, but it's like, I don't think we're really stopping to smell the roses anymore. Because how can anyone think that is anywhere close to health? I don't even and there's so many other things that can fall into that category. We have to slow down my friends, we have to slow down. We're moving so fast, we're missing everything that is right in front of us. And we see this in our group coaching, because they have PowerPoint lessons. They have tons of documents they can read through and look through, not to say they have to do them all. We do a call every single week and there's always a group of people halfway through, or eight weeks through that are always like, can you talk about this. And I'm like that was in lesson one, we talked about it. There's a lesson on it. We talked about in lesson - so it shows me that that person didn't watch them. They didn't watch the call and the playback. My point in this is, we got to slow down because this is the thing, everything we need is right in front of us but we're not slowing down, we're not creating the environment to heal. We're not creating the space to heal. We're flying right by everything, right by everything. So when you see questions like that, it's just like, "What is going on?" Like, what is going on that would prompt someone to say, "Can I donate blood when I'm pregnant?" I don't know. But I think I think a lot of people just slow down and they stop chasing all the diagnoses and all the different stuff that's happening, they would see that it can really be simple. It may be step by step, you need to get to that point and focus on mold. But what's step number one for you? What is step number one? And I think for a lot of people it's slowing down.
Matthew Blackburn 39:10
That's awesome. Yeah, you made a real - think it was like a month ago on getting outside. And it's funny your wearing sunglasses and you got people bashing you for that which made me laugh. People on the internet.
Josh Ruben 39:23
But I don't really care. I knew they would, there's always those people but those are the people that think health is obsession. I am okay going outside with no sunglasses and I do a lot. I was watering the grass this morning, I didn't have sunglasses on. I go for a walk around the block two times every day. Takes 15 minutes, I get to see hi to my favorite horses, I get away from my computer, plus my workouts or playing with Harrison. Sometimes I wear sunglasses and sometimes I don't. I don't stress about it. But yeah, that's how that's how obsessed people are. It's like, we can't wake up, without red light therapy or bulletproof coffee. We can't go to bed without taping our mouth. We can't go outside - if we put on sunglasses, we just can't go. It's become too much. So yes, for me as always, health is about balance.
Matthew Blackburn 40:24
I love it. Yeah, I think you've inspired me to get more outside and so my other friends as well. I mean, I'm in the perfect environment for it here in North Idaho, and think down where you are, it's beautiful, too. And just, yeah, just being on my lake kayaking, smoking a cigar, even if that's somewhat unhealthy to some people. It feels super-
Josh Ruben 40:46
(unintelligible) But that's what health is. It's like a lot of people see you or see me or see all these other people, or there's some people new on the scene, they think the only way to heal is to be in the sun three times a day and eat food outside and buying these supplements or doing this program. It's not. People need to take a step back and say I'm not healthy, which means I'm overloaded. How do I slow down and how do I how do I do less? But what do I need? What do I need right now? What is the first thing on my totem pole? For some people it might be just getting outside. For some people might be focusing on food, for other people that have might have nothing to do with food. So yeah, I mean, I do agree that we just need to slow down more and get outside and have fun because I've said, we've done a post on this before. When you talk about nervous system health, for me, it's about getting outside. Everyone thinks the only reason to get outside is the sun. I disagree with that. For me, it's about getting outside, I love the fresh air, it's being in nature. And no matter what you're doing outside, if you're outside, it's called playing. All the stuff that you do I see this stuff, I'm like, Man, that's some man shit. Like, I want to do that. Like I want to split the logs and drive that tractor and- Yeah, smoke a cigar on that awesome lake you got right there. Like that's play, play is a universal language of children. The problem is, we think that when we're a child, which kids don't play anymore. And think about it, the easiest way to create the cue of safety is to play. Why? Because, according to Steven Porges, playing is a strong relationship holding hands of ventral vagal and the sympathetic nervous system. So play is very predictable, it's very safe. But we say when we're done with childhood, we don't play anymore. And it's been shown that adults that are deprived of play, and children that are deprived of play, lack of imagination and curiosity, the ability to build relationships, the ability to find joy, just in the activities of just basic daily living and to auto regulate, which is self regulating, coregulate. My point in this is when you play, you strengthen that bond between those two pieces of your nervous system. So you create autonomic regulation, this is what nature is about. This is what doing the stuff you do that is play, right? It's not sitting in computer and doing these podcasts. It's it's being human and I think if more people found joy in their life, and stop obsessing about health, and I'm not saying they don't eat the food or some of the supplements, but I think we have to find that balance. A lot of people would find a lot of health and happiness in doing that.
Matthew Blackburn 42:14
Come up here and visit, Josh.
Josh Ruben 42:23
That's an awesome point. Yeah, I agree. What I noticed, too, a lot of people seem to just be looking for an angle to market, either themselves or some program or whatever. And I don't know, since I got into health like 12 years ago, it's it's always been about just learning more, even if it contradicts my beliefs, and having that integration time, which to me happens during play. So like, I'll read books and connect dots, but it's really all the connecting my brain happens when I'm outside, like playing. Yeah, I agree with that 100%. Because it's experience, you're able to process what's going on, you're able to process what you read. And information is information and between Instagram and social media, and all the programs out there, they're just information. People are overloaded, because they're not given the time to process anything. I mean, think about it, there's probably one question that we get on Instagram posts, there probably - it doesn't anymore, but I see it and I can't comment on it because it's like, UHG, and it is what is the solution? When someone says that in an Instagram post, and the reason people are asking that is because on one end of the spectrum, there's too many people trying to teach people how to ride a bike, but don't know how to ride a bike. And on the other end of it, there's so much information out there. Information is dead, if you don't apply it, it can't become knowledge. And there's a shit ton of information and it's confusing people. We need to teach people how to apply things personally, unfortunately, that is not going to be 100% explained in a podcast, you're not going to find that 100% in an Instagram post, might be a catalyst for you. It might be a catalyst for some people, but people have to step back and do the work, be their own advocate just like I did, do the research, maybe hire someone to help them, read a few books, but process the information and say, Okay, I have enough right here. I'm going to start applying it to my life. Like at what point are we going to take this information and say, Okay, I got everything I need. I just need to start going to bed earlier. spending less time on social media, getting outside, finding a hobby, playing, versus spending my waking hours researching in front of my computer and obsessing about it.
Matthew Blackburn 46:27
Yeah, yeah, it's finding that balance. I love it. It took me I think two years of having Morley on the show to start doing the adrenal cocktail regularly. It's kind of embarrassing to admit, but I like I started it - I don't know, it was February when I moved back here to Idaho and I just started hitting it like three times a day with like fresh squeezed orange juice, harmless harvest, coconut water and white salt. And that changed my life. I mean, just being consistent with that alone. That was like, the biggest thing I changed this year and I feel like I handle coffee so much better, my nervous system so much more regulated, sleeps better, moods better. It's just crazy how much of an impact with just sodium and potassium can have on the body.
Josh Ruben 47:15
They're probably the most 2 important minerals. And here's the thing everyone thinks that like, the adrenal cocktail is like a godsend, people like I don't feel anything. Of course there's many variations to it and you have to meet the person where they're at. If they have PCOS, am I gonna say here's the adrenal cocktail? No, I'm gonna say, take the supplement, because it's too much sugar, your insulin resistant, I got to help push you insulin sensitive and we don't need all that sugar. But here's the thing, if people are eating their food in a strategic way to meet their needs, that sugar or adrenal cocktail should not affect them in a negative way, and it should help them. And I say this, because a lot of people just start taking it, but they're fasting. They don't eat breakfast for the first four hours, or they eat two meals a day. Or they think pro metabolic is having salmon and marshmallows for lunch. The adrenal cocktail can't work against that. It just can't, it needs a foundation. And the reason you do it mid morning and mid afternoon is because of the circadian rhythm of when the adrenals are coming more online and when they're coming more offline, you're supporting them with those minerals. But I would say and I agree with you on this when you talk about macro minerals, whether it's calcium, magnesium, etc, I believe two of the most important in this order are potassium and sodium. Because if you regulate those and do the work, magnesium is going to automatically regulate. Same thing with calcium. 99% of time you see it all the time. Potassium being the most important because we're so deficient because of stress - because of vitamin D, it depletes renal potassium, but people just don't get enough potassium, it should be 2:1 to 5:1 of sodium, we get too much sodium because the processed foods, people think all they need is salt. The problem is, number one, salt won't be a problem - you could have this much salt, super high but if potassium is 2:1 or 5:1 of that, you're fine, it shouldn't be a problem. So I agree with you 100%, we need more potassium but -- and then the adrenal cocktail is a piece of that. But there's also foods for people that are listening that can get you the potassium that you need, of course. So potassium rich foods like salmon orange juice, of course coconut water, but yet potatoes, (unintelligible) like apricots, prunes and raisins and things like there's so many foods with potassium, we just need to get more potassium and when you talk about blood pressure and things like that. Potassium, potassium, potassium, not the supplement, but the food.
Matthew Blackburn 49:56
Yeah, that's a good segue. I forget if I've asked you this in our previous chats, but I'm like two hours from Canada, I'm way pretty northern latitude, I get dumped on with snow in the winter. And apples, plums, cherries, certain fruits do grow way up here outside, but the ancestral people or whatever, there's a lot of people that make the argument that you should only eat seasonally and locally. Now, I'm gonna set up a greenhouse this summer, which I'll be able to grow year round. Everything I want, pretty much is the goal. But do you think there's anything morally wrong with buying, fruit shipped from Mexico?
Josh Ruben 50:44
It's personal preference, right? I know, there's practitioners that say you should only buy what's in season and what's grown in your area. Maybe, maybe 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, that was easier. If you're single, or you're married, don't have kids, and you don't work a lot and you live in a community where it's available. Sure, it's easy. But there's a lot of people that don't have that ability. There's a lot of people that don't have the money for that. There's a lot of people that don't have the time for that, because they have a husband, a job and five kids. This is why I believe there's - you can't say this is the way. And I know there's a lot of that and Instagram, but you have to buy seasonally, you shouldn't be eating this because it's winter time, or you only should be eating this because it's summertime. It's not practical. And that tells me that they're trying to teach people how to ride a bike, they've never ridden a bike, because they've never worked with people. They've never been a chameleon. And I really challenge people to gain that experience because it will really help you shape your practice for all the practitioners that are learning and growing. So to answer your question, to each their own, if you can do it great. But if you don't have that ability and you're okay with it, I don't really see a problem with it. If you feel like they're not right, cook them, maybe you can stop during the summer, so you have it in the winter. But on the other end of it, I also think that the the focus on carbs has been so big, and it's been over -- It's been over focused on, everyone needs 300 grams of carbs a day, it's just out of control. And through my years of working with people, I've really seen that we need carbs. But I think there's a lot of people that, if they really work with people and personalize it, they would see that a lot of people don't need as much as they're taking in. How do we know this? Well, this is why there's such a huge influx of people that do pro metabolic, that gain weight, because they come into it very insulin resistant. Insulin resistance is driven by stress, eating carbs just exacerbates the process. So there's people that come into pro metabolic, and because they see all marshmallows and orange juice, "I can eat carbs again." And what happens is they over eat carbs and they under eat protein. This is what we see with people. What happens when you do that, you're going to have a high A1C, possibly high cholesterol, maybe fatty liver and you're going to gain weight. This is huge. We see it from everyone in pro metabolic. Why? Because that person probably needs carbs, but not as much as they're eating, they need a little bit more protein and fat, movement, getting outside, more fiber to help them to push them insulin sensitive. So let's say that process took a year, it can take longer, but in the beginning, they're gonna have lower carbs, high protein and fat. Numbers? I don't know, it's relative to the person. But as they heal over time, that will change. But someone with an insulin resistant state, which is mostly everyone, in my opinion, you can't overdo carbs, you can't and the weight gain is hilarious, it's been glorified even within this community. That it's a part of the process and I truly believe it's not part of the process. Yes, there's some people that need to gain weight, gain healthy weight. It's like when you're pregnant, you gain 30 pounds, that's normal, that's healthy weight, you gain 100, we have a problem. You shouldn't gain 100 pounds when you're pregnant. So when you talk about the carbs, it's like maybe that time of the year based on who you are, you eat less carbs because they're not as much available. I'm just speaking based on where you are. And you say I'm going to increase my protein and fat. Try that, maybe it works you, I don't know. But you do a lot of work so you might say, I do need carbs, but if I just eat based on where I'm at, then I struggle energetically, so it doesn't work for you. So we, again, we have to find that balance point with what's going to work for us. There's no blanket method. Now, yes, we have our method, but the way we work with everyone is so very different. And I think people really need to adapt that because there's no just one size fits all, just eat based on the seasons or based what's in your region, in my opinion.
Matthew Blackburn 55:24
That's awesome. Yeah. Do you have time for a few questions, Josh? Pick some good ones here. "What's his theory for the iron loaded, thalassemia patients achieving normal iron status after transplants without phlebotomy or chelation therapy." So I guess achieving normal iron status without donating. So I think what, there's like, there's certain supplements, Apolactoferrin, curcumin. But I haven't seen, I haven't looked at-
Josh Ruben 55:57
Does he mean if you can chelate iron without donating blood, is that kind of the question?
Matthew Blackburn 56:01
I think. Yeah.
Josh Ruben 56:01
Yeah, I mean, once again, it comes down to recycling iron and supporting that system. But I worked with some people because they - if you go to donate blood, you notice that every time you go you answer the same questions, whether you do it rapid pass through the Red Cross on your phone, or you answer it in pencil or pen when you go in, it's always the same questions. There's 20 of them and they range from how do you feel today to? Did you just have anal sex? Did you get a tattoo in the past three months? Did you live in the UK during these dates? Do you have a bone graft? Etc, etc. So there's some people that can't donate blood. It's just the world we live in. Is there a way to chelate? Yes, is it going to take longer, yes. But the first step is always supporting iron cycling, building up the minerals, and regulating that relationship. But as that person works towards the need for iron chelating supplements, they can use certain supplements to help desaturate the tissues if they need to always consult their doctor, of course, or practitioner to do so. But you can, but it's going to take - like when I was taking those supplements, I took them at the same time as they donated blood, but I took them for like four years straight, every single day. So they help, but it's not like the end all be all, but it can help but it's gonna take time. Yeah, I think I waited too long because I interviewed Morley for the first time it was like, I don't know, 2019 the end or something like that. And I got my Full Monty, right then and then took me like two years to donate. And then I got my second Full Monty, two months ago or whatever. And it's so interesting, because my iron saturation went down. And a lot of markers improved, but my ceruloplasmin went down, copper and zinc went down, like pretty significantly. So my theory is that my body was - it was doing it right but it was using up nutrients to kickstart that iron recycling program.
Matthew Blackburn 57:40
What was your irons at? It started, so my first one, I think it was 40 like 43 or something. And then this recent one, it went down to, I don't know, 30 or somewhere around there. It went down like 10 - 15.
Josh Ruben 58:33
What was your iron ferritin?
Matthew Blackburn 58:37
Shoot, I should have pulled them up.
Josh Ruben 58:40
Yeah, I mean, it could mean a good thing, it depends where all your values are, it could have meant that you need to build up a little more before you donate even. Who knows, I'd have to look at it. But you can - dude, I work with a lot of people who just can't donate because of a cancer, etc, so we still work with food. We still work with minerals, but then we add in those iron chelating supplements. You can use castor oil packs to help. It's just - it's not like icing on the cake, it's the little bit of extra help to chelate iron.
Matthew Blackburn 59:14
Right. Oh, I just, I found it Josh. Yeah, so my iron sat went from 40 to 28.5. I went from 116 to 78. What else? Yeah, the vitamin A to D ratio was right on, I think it was like 2.2
Josh Ruben 59:32
What did Morley say about it?
Matthew Blackburn 59:35
He actually - I haven't gone through him with it. What's interesting is my ferritin and tripled, which I don't know what that means. This was before. Sorry. This was before my second donation so I have to get another one. To see how, how it changed but -
Josh Ruben 59:54
Yeah, usually you'll see it go down anywhere what I've seen is like 20 to 30 points.
Matthew Blackburn 59:59
Josh Ruben 1:00:01
Ferritin will go down to go up? Never seen that.
Matthew Blackburn 1:00:04
Yeah, cuz I basically, like morally recommend not to call a RCP practitioner, get your full monty before you donate. Never after because the numbers will be off. And so yeah, I think this one was right before my second donation so it'd be interesting to see. But let's see if we have any other last ones here. Oh, this is a really common one, it's probably good to ask, "How long to do foundational food work and adrenal cocktail before donating blood." I'm gonna guess, it varies.
Josh Ruben 1:00:40
Going back to what I said earlier, not everyone needs to donate blood but I would say if you're not going to do a Full Monty, what I've seen is -- because I do have some people that just can't afford it. Like, I'm not dogmatic and gonna say you have to do Full Monty. I throw it out there, if they can great, if they can't, if they don't have the money to do it and that's okay. But what I've seen is, and what's worked is really focusing on the food, lifestyle modification, the adrenal cocktail, getting the right nutrient dense food for a good five to six months easily before you even think about donating. You got to create that foundation because we're 10, 20, 30 years in debt and you don't want to work against you, because when it works against you, it scares a lot of people because they're so exhausted for so long. And when you don't feel good to feel even more exhausted, like no one has the time for that. We don't want to feel that way so you got to just go slow with it and give your self the space and your body grace and just ride the wave a little bit.
Matthew Blackburn 1:01:47
And I have a question for you, Josh. So you said you've been donating since 2014 every 56 days. How many times have they stuck through the vein and gave you hematoma because I got that my second donation.
Josh Ruben 1:02:00
Never actually. Yeah, I think there was one time this guy, it just, I mean, of course, it's a big needle so it's not like the most pleasant experience but the more you go you just kind of learn to deal with it but this guy was just I felt like he put it in was just like moving it around. I was like, bro, slow down, like you're killing me right now. So it was a little it wasn't like bruised afterwards, it was just sore. But I mean, out of all the times I've done, it's never - I've never had an issue.
Matthew Blackburn 1:02:32
Well, that's good to know. Yeah, cuz I've been going into Vitalant and maybe I should just ask for an experienced person because a red flag when she was taking my - pricking my finger, she's like, Oh, I'm usually not working here. I should have said, Uh oh.
Josh Ruben 1:02:48
I don't usually work here.
Matthew Blackburn 1:02:53
Works the grocery store.
Josh Ruben 1:02:56
I dont usually work here, I usually work at Blockbuster. I'm taking blood today.
Matthew Blackburn 1:03:05
Well, this is awesome, Josh. I always learn a lot from you and I really appreciate your work and you're just grounded approach and that you don't guru-ize, any one person, that you kind of take from everyone. Just really appreciate what you do.
Josh Ruben 1:03:20
Yeah, I mean, I'll admit, back in the day, I was super dogmatic. But I learned from someone super dogmatic, at the time so looking back it makes sense. But to each their own, if someone wants to worship someone, it doesn't bother me, but I feel like we can learn something from everyone, even if it's a little piece -- and there's no one size fits all. So you really have to kind of sometimes pull a little bit from here, pull a little bit from there to really kind of help ourselves.
Matthew Blackburn 1:04:00
I love it. So where can people find you? Is it still East West Healing?
Josh Ruben 1:04:06
Yeah, our websites eastwesthealing.com, you can find our guides on there, our group coaching or one on one coaching. And then of course, our Facebook is - you can find all these on our website, but our Facebook is EastWest Healing. I think our YouTube is EastWest Healing and our Instagram is realfoodgangstas. Yeah, but we actually wrote an anemia guide. We don't have a name for a yet -- so it's written and Jeanne editing it, really editing it and kind of either adding to it or pulling away because sometimes they tend to go overboard. But it's really about, of course, there's some science in there and try not to go deep. But it's really about what's happening. How do we get here? And how do we support it with food? And if there's a need for iron chelating supplements, which ones do we use? If there's a need for donating blood kind of how do we do it. So that should be out hopefully, I mean, the latest the end of the year, my guess it should be out probably September, October, November the latest. So definitely keep an eye out for that.
Matthew Blackburn 1:05:15
That's exciting. That's awesome. Right on. Oh, I forgot to ask question our mutual friend Justin, the Extreme Health Radio is like, "Thoughts on donating blood every two months for a limited time." You said you've been doing that for years. Right? So if supporting your system, with food-
Josh Ruben 1:05:33
Yeah, I'm definitely questioning it. I mean, I test myself once a year because of my history, I'll test. I don't do a Full Monty, every year. Well, I should say this, I retest certain values, when I feel like I need to. Like if I just (revving noise) just like in my head, okay and I want to check my ferritin because, of course, I'm not gonna lie, it being so high, like it was a very traumatic experience. So I just want to make sure it's not high among other values, but I do labs easily every 6 to 12 months on my own, I use Ulta Labs to do that. Most guys should be donating blood, we don't have a way to get rid of iron. But same thing, focus on supporting iron recycling first and once you're there, yes, start donating blood. But if it feels weird or off, do a Full Monty and see if you should be donating blood and how often because here's the thing, like I said, what if my client who's a male doesn't feel good, and said, "Well, I'm overloaded with iron." and he donated blood, it would have killed him. His hemoglobin is 5, everything is single valuw. He is severely deficient. So it's always safe, if you can't do a Full Monty, piece it together as much as you can, as many values as you can on Ulta Labs, but at least get a view of some things, if you're going to continually donate to make sure that you're not overdoing it. And that, what I do, I mean, there was a period last year where I donated, I don't know what month it was, it was beginning of the year and I donated and I was like, whoa. Like, I usually feel nothing or I feel good. I'm like, something feels off. I ran bloods, everything was kind of normal but I waited four months, instead of two months to donate. So sometimes it doesn't always have to be - it could be once a quarter. You just have to be smart about it. Because just like anything, you can go overboard with it. Yeah, I like what you said about you should feel either nothing or like Superman or Superwoman for a couple of days. Because that's how I felt, it was like a spiritual experience for me. I've never felt that good. I don't really get that feeling anymore, which I have to admit sucks. I know it sounds addictive but I remember the first few years I was so like, addicted to donating blood because I would feel so amazing walking out of there. I was thirsty, I had an appetite, I had energy, I'm just like, "This is amazing. I'll do this for the rest of my life". And of course, you're saving someone like, what's interesting is I learned after all these years of donating blood, the type of blood I have and because it's a negative - forget the virus, and I think I'm O positive or O negative, I forget anyway.
Matthew Blackburn 1:08:41
I'm O positive. Yeah, I think O negative's the most rare, pretty sure.
Josh Ruben 1:08:45
Yeah, I forget which one I am but because of the type of blood I have, maybe it's O negative, I don't know. And I'm also negative for a virus they check for and it's like less than 1% of the population is negative for this virus. And because of my blood type in that, my blood is always given to babies in the NICU. So you're also saving someone's life at the same time, which is great - but donating blood is very healthy. It's very healthy. And think about this, I have clients that are on TRT, I have clients that are on hormones. And when you're taking exogenous hormones, and let's say they need those hormones, you're going to raise your hemoglobin, naturally. Those people need to be donating blood for health reasons. So it's a very healthy thing to do. People that have high blood pressure, they need to donate blood among regulate potassium and other minerals, focusing on exercise to change heart morphology, and focusing on potassium but it's such a healthy thing for people to do and at the same time, you're saving someone's life.
Matthew Blackburn 1:09:54
I love it. Well I know you got to run Josh, so thanks so much for your time and it's always a lot of fun. We got to do this again.
Josh Ruben 1:10:02
I appreciate it, my friend.
Matthew Blackburn 1:10:04
All right, stick around to close out the show. That is all for today's show. I hope it connected some dots for you. I really love that Josh just keeps emphasizing the basics of balanced nutrition, getting outside, playing, I think people tend to forget about those simple things. And they go down these rabbit holes and just get lost. I've been there, I think a lot of us have been there. And there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you can recognize it, and get out of that hole and get back to a more sustainable path. And I love to research, I can just spend all day reading books, and connecting dots, and just philosophizing on different things. And that's my job, which is really fun for me. But like I told Josh, it's that integration time, that is just as important. And I think people forget that. And that could just put you on a hamster wheel that just goes round and round forever and you're not getting anywhere. It's really in the application, and the integration of the information where all of the action happens. So if you've been confused about nutrition, and gone through all the different diets, and are just frustrated with all the conflicting information, I really like what Josh and Jeanne are doing with East West Healing, with group coaching, and one on one coaching, it's really helping people to get back to the basics and dial in the foundational stuff before they get into supplementation, and experimenting, if that doesn't stress them out. Because that can stress a lot of people out, and they just get overwhelmed and that's when you have to take a step back and focus on getting enough calories in and enough carbohydrates, animal protein, just the basic stuff minerals, sodium, potassium, I think most people that get into supplementation don't have those pieces down. And so that really limits the results and or just makes the results from a supplement temporary. So if you want to dive deeper into Josh and Jeanne's work, you can go to eastwesthealing.com. And Josh told me that their group coaching is open for enrollment, and that starts June 15. And you could also find them on Instagram, their account is realfoodgangstas, and tons of free information on there. So some people can glean all the free information from his post and connect the dots and see a massive change - possibly, that's how I did it. I didn't work with any coaches, I just connected the dots myself, reading different people's works and experimenting, and I just continually improved my energy, my mood, my sleep, everything. But a lot of people don't have time for that. So that's where working with a coach like Josh and Jeanne can really help to fast track your journey instead of trying to do it all yourself. And if you want to support my work, you can go to matt-blackburn.com. And I keep putting new recommended products up on the website, I've been playing around with the Analemma Water Wands, that I learned about from Dr. Cowan and my friend, Adam Marafioti. Basically, it's a water structuring device. And I went into it with skepticism but an open mind. And it definitely changes the mouthfeel of the water. Really fascinating, still wrapping my head around how it works exactly. And the other day I actually put a new product up, it's a digital product called Real Subliminal. And this is something I found several years ago actually when I was living with my parents, and I just wanted to start to rewire my brain. And so I was playing around with the Dr. Patrick Flanagan, Neurophone, which is an ultrasonic brain device, supposedly a speed learning device, there are a lot of wild claims that were made about what that can do. But what's cool is you can listen without ear buds. So basically you're listening to whatever, music or someone talking, through your skin, through your forehead with these ultrasonic transducers. So I'm not referring to Real Subliminal here, I'm referring to the Neurophone, which I have on the site. It's called the NF3 Neurophone and it lasts forever, it's just a rechargeable nine volt battery. But I still use that in my float tank, it's just pink noise. Turn that on sometimes and you can also wear it to sleep. And I did that for several years, I did an experiment for at least three months, where I just kept it by my bedside. And I had the little old school iPod. And I uploaded these tracks these mp3's from this website, Real Subliminal, so it's like $12 per track. And essentially, they're like affirmations. But there's about 10 of them and they just repeat. And so there's four tracks with like a waterfall in the background and then there's a silent one, which is good to play just ambiently sometimes I'll just put that on my bluetooth speaker as I'm walking around the house. And that's just programming my subconscious. But the best thing to do would be to be asleep or take a nap combined with these because that drives them further into the subconscious mind. So this might sound really out there but I had just a lot of low self worth back then. And that's why I wasn't making much money, just working minimum wage jobs, multiple jobs just overworking. And so I started to do their money tracks. I can't remember which one I did. But it was basically a money, like mindset, reset. And a self worth reset and I just started to be more and more successful in business. And of course, at the same time helping people, right, which is just as important that should be equally balanced. And it was incredible how fast it happened. Because very quickly, I was able to move out of my parents house into my first apartment. And then I had roommates and I was able to move into my first apartment by myself, and then into a tiny cabin, and then bigger cabin, and it just kept increasing. And so it's really powerful these programs that run our life in the background that we just don't realize, and it sounds too good to be true. But you really can rewire it with these subliminal messages. So I'd like to have a podcast on that at some point, I'm just fascinated with this subject. And, yeah, if you go through my website, I make a little bit, there's no discount codes. But the more tracks you buy, the more of a discount you get. And what's really cool is they have an app and so it's automatically uploaded to the app if you have a iPhone or an Android. And so that makes it really easy to use. You don't need to download them onto your device. And my company is called Mitolife, you can find that at mitolife.co. And we're finally getting the Panacea Shilajit back in stock. Everyone's been waiting so patiently, the wild international events that are happening right now. And so that will be back by the end of the month, as promised, and we'll have a good supply for you guys. And we're still working on the beef liver product, the freeze dried beef liver and the oyster. But the beef liver will probably be out first and then the oyster in a few weeks. But keep an eye out for the Shilajit, I still take five every day after breakfast, and it's an amazing start to the day, I still feel it every time. So thank you for listening, check out the Mitolife Academy, my private YouTube where I put up four videos every month and a live Q&A at the end of the month. That's a lot of fun. And stay tuned for a new episode every Friday. Stay supercharged.