Jason Hommel 2 | Mitolife Radio Ep #177

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
zinc, copper, milligrams, problem, copper sulfate, supplement, copper toxicity, iodine, vitamin, body, magnesium, fluoride, zinc deficiency, minerals, vitamin c, toxins, eating, interesting, day, experimenting

Matthew Blackburn 00:18
You're listening to Episode 177, of MITOLIFE Radio. I'm Matt Blackburn. And today, Jason Hommel, returns to the show is the author of the book, "The copper revolution" and lately, he said he thought about switching the name to the copper zinc revolution. Because these two minerals work together in a really powerful way. In the last two years, a lot of people have been taking only zinc, ascorbic acid, and vitamin D, and none of the other things that balance those out. Now, I still don't recommend vitamin D. Neither does Jason. But with the other two that I mentioned, those are balanced out simply by taking copper, which he advocates, and he doesn't sell a copper supplement, he recommends making it yourself using copper sulfate dissolved in a two ounce dropper bottle. And that way you can make a bottle with over 1000 milligrams for three cents. So right there that knocks out two arguments that he might be biased because he's selling a copper supplement. Or the other argument that it's too expensive and supplements are expensive. Both of those are shot down with what he talks about. So if you haven't heard the first interview that I did with Jason, I highly recommend going back and listening to that one on the myth of copper toxicity, because that brings some context to this discussion about the mineral zinc, because he can't talk about zinc without talking about copper. And as far as I've heard in lectures, podcast, books, not a lot of people delve into the relationship between copper and zinc. And it was experience that taught Jason because when he was high dosing, copper 30 milligrams orally 70 milligrams transdermally with the copper sulfate, he found that he created a zinc deficiency, which will happen if you're upping your copper. So a lot of people are confused about how much to take of supplements. And it really comes down to how much you're taking of their counterpart and or how much you've been dosed with. And they have dosed people very heavily on vitamin D, and calcium. And Jason and I are on the same page there that we should not be supplementing vitamin D, or calcium. And he also recommends against other supplements which he talks about in the show, but on the topic of zinc, we talk about metallothionein which is a protein in the liver that gets up regulated when you start consuming copper or zinc. He talks about the RDA for zinc, the health benefits of zinc, the copper zinc, optimal ratio, how zinc can actually help us absorb more copper, the connection with zinc to vitamin A, the digestive benefits of zinc, how to test it If blood tests are accurate. And we also talked about iodine, selenium, and vitamin C. And at the end, I asked him listener questions, including the best time of day to take zinc, does it help with loss of smell? Does it help with hair loss? What's the best form to zinc, increase sperm count? Does zinc and sunscreen affect your zinc status? Or white spots in the nails? A sign of zinc deficiency? Is the zinc test tasting in your mouth taste metallic Is that accurate way to determine whether your body needs it or not? Best Foods sources of zinc and why someone might get a headache from taking zinc. This was a really fun show. And it helped connect a lot of dots for me, and hopefully it does for you as well. Here is Jason Hommel. All right, Jason Hommel welcome back to the show.

Jason Hommel 05:00
Oh, thank you for having me. Like, it sounds like we're gonna have another good show today.

Matthew Blackburn 05:04
Yeah, the first one was really fun. And people really enjoyed that. Because there's, there's a lot of information out there about zinc, which we're going to talk about today, but not a lot about copper. And what I found fascinating is looking into the relationship between those two minerals lately, and how they're kind of joined at the hip, right? I mean, you could just slam your body with copper all day long. But as you said, on your group, you'll just deplete your zinc, if that's not coming in.

Jason Hommel 05:37
That's right. That's, that's I mean, that's right. I mean, I, I tried it Morley's way. And as I was finishing up writing my book, he convinced me to try a lower amount of zinc. Before I get into that, I want to just say how much zinc I'm taking and I gotta ask you how much think you're taking, I'm taking anywhere between about 50 to 100 milligrams of zinc a day. And I'm taking about 30 milligrams of copper a day, and I'm applying about 70 milligrams of copper to my skin. So I'm trying to find a balance between those two going back and forth. But yeah, just right about there. How much are you taking?

Matthew Blackburn 06:12
Yeah, so I'll just preface this with. I think since our last interview, that's when I started applying copper primarily topically, but I was taking it orally as well. And I think for the last, I don't know, five, six weeks, I forget how long our last show was ago, I was taking roughly 20 milligrams orally, usually bisglycinate. And then I was applying to my skin I think I calculated it was it was about 100 milligrams. So it was a significant amount. And I was feeling good. But I know we only absorb, you know a certain amount, we don't absorb all of that. So I was probably getting 50-60-70 milligrams. But I posted in your group, it was funny because I was visiting my dad in California, and my hands turned blue and my, my mom was freaking out. And she's like, is that permanent? Like, no, don't worry about it, I'm just trying this new thing. And, and then he said, rub ascorbic acid on your hands. And so I broke a capsule in the hands rubbed it under their filtered water. And that immediately took out the color. But what's interesting is the very next morning, I woke up and my hands were bright red. It looked like Arizona rocks and he responded, he said, Take zinc, and so I had some of that. So I started on that. And within a couple days, I mean, within the first day it started to fade. And so that really made me start to see the relationship between these minerals. And so I started with on zinc. And I think I started at a very modest amount, I don't know 20-30 milligrams a day, maybe a maximum of 50. And then lately, I've just been experimenting with higher doses. And I'm not just shooting in thin air here, I got a full monty iron panel recently, and my copper and zinc were not optimal. I think they're supposed to be 100 or 120. And they're around 70. So I had both at 60 to 70 range. And that's I know there's plasma, zinc and the testing is a whole nother topic. But from what I understand copper and zinc are only like 1% in the blood and the rest is in the tissues. And so those tests aren't very accurate, right?

Jason Hommel 08:40
They're not accurate, I wouldn't worry that your copper is a bit low. Because, first of all, there's almost no studies and data on people who are taking high copper. So we really don't know what is going to happen with what it's gonna look like in our blood. But from what the research that I have read, it shows that copper can be high in the blood during copper deficiency during all sorts of copper deficiency diseases from whether from inflammation or heart disease or whatever. And then they start to give copper to solve those problems, they have to give enough to work, maybe, you know, and the researchers have to guess at how much they use maybe 6 to 10 milligrams most, at most, because they're all very super conservative. And then what happens next is that the blood copper goes up a little higher, and then it starts to cure this situation for disease or inflammation or heart disease or whatever. And then the copper comes back down. So at our high levels, it should come back down and we might not have even average levels because the other thing is that the body gets very efficient at processing and eliminating copper which we're going to talk about a little bit later and we talked about metallothionein because the body will make more of that which helps to carry copper out of the body. So as the more copper you take, the more copper you will excrete, which goes to show the copper is not toxic and cannot be toxic until you overwhelm this excretion mechanism, which in rats happens at 5000 milligrams a day or higher 10,000 milligrams a day. And what is theorized is that the reason why they're able to sustain such a high level is and why they get overwhelmed is that the rats start making a ton more metallothionein which excretes the copper and it's only when that whole system gets overwhelmed that then copper toxicity sets in. So in that whole process almost refutes the entire concept of there being a copper toxicity by accident, because real toxicity happens at these extremely high doses, or in humans who take 20,000 milligrams of copper. So don't fear what your Montey panel is showing because again, those tests are not very accurate for copper. Now, for zinc, it's a little bit of a different story, because zinc is very tightly regulated, I don't know if high zinc could indicate low zinc like copper can, but when zinc goes low, you're definitely low because by that time, you're you've bypassed your homosstatic mechanism or whatever. And I tested low zinc way back in. Oh, gosh, what was it 2016 I started taking more zinc. Then I also started taking more copper because I was also a little bit low on copper. Didn't know anything back then. I just that's really got me what got me started on the road of minerals so much. It was right around 2016.

Matthew Blackburn 11:30
Wow. Yeah, I'm trying to remember what year I think it was 2018-2019 I was slamming oysters. Because I was on this quantum health. You know, Jack Kruse protocol. I've tried so many protocols over the years, and it was like naked sunbathing, grounding, sungazing. And just tons and tons of seafood. And I felt pretty good. And I actually got a insidetracker. Like, panel, I think it was 30 markers. And what was interesting is my testosterone was 1268. So it was it was over 1200 Yeah, but I was probably low copper. So.

Jason Hommel 12:16
Oh, yeah. Okay, right. Well, yeah, maybe young men are typically not low in minerals, unless you've done really bad things like drink too much alcohol or something.

Matthew Blackburn 12:27
Yeah, and I'd like to talk about that. What what depletes and I think we had some people ask that I think obviously, sexual activity, that's usually what people think of as zinc. I think Atom Bergstrom said something interesting.

Jason Hommel 12:40
I don't think you can really deplete. I don't think he can really deplete zinc from too much sexual activity. I mean, yes, it's well known that semen contains zinc, but it's the amounts are so small, it's, you know, it's fractions of a milligram.

Matthew Blackburn 12:54
Yeah, I think I read that. Yeah. It's kind of like with a women's menstrual bleeding an iron. It's like one milligram or less, like you don't lose enough. Interesting.

Jason Hommel 13:07
So it was in the RDA right here in the beginning for zinc, right. I mean, these are the basics. So I mean, the RDA for zinc, I tried to get a handle on somewhere between 10 and 15 milligrams, and then the upper limits around 40. Okay, but I take 50. The reason at least, at least I got to the reason on why it's 40. And that is because over that too much zinc and you deplete copper or around that. I guess some people have noted that zinc can deplete copper, if you take as little as 25 milligrams of zinc. But I find it interesting that the government has set it at 40. It can be a little high. Right. So I don't know.

Matthew Blackburn 13:49
Yeah. And that's something I've been beating the drum on, thanks to Morley for the last two years is with this whole COVID thing. They've just been pushing. You know, it's like , zinc, ascorbic acid, vitamin D. And, like,-

Jason Hommel 14:04
Yeah, that will deplete copper. Right? Yeah, no copper. Again, right. And that's all and nobody mentions copper for COVID But I did in the book.

Matthew Blackburn 14:19
Yeah, cuz if copper was coming in, and those I mean, Vitamin D is pretty hard to mitigate. But if if copper is coming in, then your body could balance out a lot, right? You've written about the interrelationships between what is the iodine and vitamin C and they all kind of work together.

Jason Hommel 14:37
They they do I take quite a lot of minerals and vitamins. Vitamin C is probably the vitamin I like I liked them all. So I love iodine is my second favorite mineral zinc might be my third. Copper is my favorite mineral of course, but zincs got a lot of good things going for it too. It does indeed help us boost testosterone and helps improve sleep zinc uh eliminates allergies and histamine reactions and rashes, and all of the almost all of those are tied together because you need sleep for healing, testosterone for healing. And when you get zinc, it helps bring all those together and if you can heal, then of course you're gonna heal from things like rashes, and allergies and sinus problems. It's kind of funny, I used to think that, well, I don't have allergies, I just have a runny nose, but we should almost think of it as the same thing. You know, you don't have to be diagnosed with allergies to be low zinc, you know. runny noses can be just just as bad. So, nowadays, if I even just sneeze once for no reason. Ah, I probably need a zinc.

Matthew Blackburn 15:49
Yeah, I recently learned with it that diamine oxidase enzyme, the DAO enzyme, like people were taking, eating kidney or doing desiccated kidney, because kidney contains the DAO enzyme or think you could just straight supplement that enzyme. But if you want to make it and your body recently learned that you need not just copper, like I believe, for the last two years, but you need copper plus zinc plus vitamin C, right? You'd like multiple things. It's usually not just one thing.

Jason Hommel 16:22
Right? That's another thing. We're gonna get into quite a few of these, like metallothionein, and you need quite a few ingredients to make it. But it's interesting how in the studies, even just taking a ton of copper will make the metallothionein creation go through the roof to deal with just the copper and you'll need copper as an ingredient to make metallothionein as well as zinc as well as selenium and sulfur and protein all are needed to makemetallothionein.

Matthew Blackburn 16:57
Yeah, that was so pretty interesting I found about your work is that metallothionein research because interviewing Morley, he's brought it up a lot, I think almost every show or every other show. And he, he often says that it binds copper 1000 times stronger than zinc. And that's a really bad thing. And it can be right but but what I didn't know is that it's also our is that our primary heavy metal detoxifier. That's how we detoxify heavy metals is via metallothionein, and it has a lot of different beneficial functions besides just depleting our copper?

Jason Hommel 17:37
Right, it doesn't just deplete copper. I have read researchers. Well, first of all metallothionein is actually a family of metallothionein enzymes, it's not just one. And then the other is that I was just reading and reading about zinc because I had to study for the show at least a little bit and learn a little bit more things. They don't really know exactly what all metallothioneins will do. Because there's so many. And just because they bind something doesn't mean that it's bound for excretion. Some researchers have described metallothionein as storage proteins, some of them describe it as transport protein and others describe it as an excretion protein. So it can do quite a few different things. I mean, if you're transporting something, you're transporting it were to a location to do something. So it can store it. And it can mean just like people call ferritin. Right. ferritin is it's not iron. It's an iron binding protein and it's in the blood. So it's transporting it in the blood, but they call it a storage protein. Well, metallothionein could be a storage protein, too. We don't really know there's so many unknowns, we need to be a little bit more cautious when we say things I think.

Matthew Blackburn 18:48
Yeah, so says going back that's interesting. The RDA is 10 to 15 milligrams, which to me doesn't sound like enough, just thinking. He said the upper limit is 40 milligrams.

Jason Hommel 19:01
What's interesting is just on a carnivore diet, people can get 60 milligrams of zinc or in oysters. If you eat plenty of oysters you can get easily into the 100-150 milligram ranges for zinc because oysters are so ridiculously high in zinc. Yeah, it's amazing.

Matthew Blackburn 19:21
Do you think a lot of the people on the carnivore diet are copper deficient if they're if they're just slamming muscle meats, like there's a lot of people that are just eating steaks for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Jason Hommel 19:32
I have seen a pro copper people who were carnivore realize that their carnivore diets being so high in zinc caused copper depletion. And so the solution to the carnivore diet is copper interestingly enough, and vegans might get like a tiny bit more copper but not very much but they also absorbed slightly less. So. Almost the entire food supply is devoid of Hopper whether you're vegan or carnivore, there's really no good foods or food sources for copper except for liver. But yes, you're right, carnivore diets can cause copper deficiency. Seeing that again, again.

Matthew Blackburn 20:11
And even liver, right, because it blew my mind. Like, I haven't stopped thinking about it for a day since Marley said this, that that farmer down in Texas did a liver biopsy of his cattle. And he found zero copper, essentially in their livers. And they were looking to make a desiccated liver capsule product, which are super trending right now. And there is no Copper and this was a healthy, this very healthy farm. And to me, that's very scary, because people are banking on these organ meats, as being superior to say your copper sulfate solution that you recommend this. That's synthetic, it's an unnatural, it's isolated, wouldn't find that nature, it would be more natural to get it from liver. But I just question Is it even in liver? Like, can you rely on that?

Jason Hommel 21:03
That's wild. That's wild. I can't believe it myself. I don't know. I mean, I know. I mean, there's there are a lot of things out there like glyphosate that is chelating the copper in soils and so we're not the plants aren't getting it and then the cows aren't getting it if they're eating, you know, grass that has been contaminated with glyphosate so they could be copper deficient animals. In fact, in my book, one of the statements that struck me the most was that copper deficiency is the number one nutritional problem in all agricultural animals. So it's not just in humans, and the fact that even our food supply is so low in copper that explains why we're so low and copper. But I want to address the comment that you just made that yeah, people think that, you know, copper sulfate isn't natural or whatever. But it's important. Remember, the copper sulfate is merely a salt. S A L T It's a salt is no different than table salt, chemically a salt is a salt. If copper sulfate is unnatural, then don't ever salt your food. You know? People think oh, well, if it's organic, and we can't, we can't absorb or inorganic minerals. Well, that's nonsense. You know, iodine is inorganic. It's the inorganic form of iodine that's the safest kind of iodine, in fact, and copper sulfate is super safe, because it's totally purified. And it's been removed and contaminants when they form copper sulfate. And it grows as a crystal. The crystallization growing process, purifies the stuff so that it becomes literally pharmaceutical grade 99% Pure, it makes it pharma grade and food grade. So you know, if you buy a regular copper supplement that has all sorts of other binders in it, who knows what you're getting, but if you're buying copper sulfate, and it's already 99% Pure purity is really where it's at.

Matthew Blackburn 23:05
Yeah, that's a good point. And you brought up something interesting that organic versus inorganic minerals, because that's been something I've been meditating on for, I don't know, seven years or so. And it's my understanding like organic mineral. I mean, I'm not an expert by any means. I'm just a layperson, but it's my understanding that organic minerals are attached to carbon. So basically, they're bonded to carbon and inorganic minerals are not, which doesn't make one better than the other. But I am a fan of Shilajit, I sell the resin I import from Russia myself. And that contains fulvic acid which the plants use to uptick minerals. And so that's part of my mitigation strategy. If I go out and have a cheeseburger or whatever is I just take like a gram of Shilajit to get fulvic acid and try to balance out the food ingredients that I'm eating the probably weren't grown properly, you know, so. But yeah, it's interesting with the copper sulfate that's a solution for farmers. Yeah, good.

Jason Hommel 24:10
It is. Farmers do use it as like a for their animals and for their crops and things like that. In fact, Bordeaux mixture is used applied on grapes in France. It's copper sulfate, mixed with like a calcium. It's used as a pesticide and prevents people from eating their grapes because they taste sour on the outside of the skin or whatever. And it ends up in the wines and kind of explains the French diet paradox why they eat high fat diets and yet at the same time, they're healthy and they'll get heart disease because the copper prevents heart disease. So that's an interesting connection there. You did mention so if there's a carbon atom, it's an organic so if you look up malachite. Malachiteis, is copper attached to a carbon atom in it. One of the historic uses or or sources for for copper was crushed and powder malachite. Cleopatra is known to have used crushed and powdered malachite for her eyeshadow of all things, you know, it probably also reduced some puffiness. As you know, copper is great for the skin.

Matthew Blackburn 25:13
Yeah, that's incredible. I Yeah, for sure interview I got some malachite. And I'm thinking I'm going to put it on my walls in my, in my bathroom. SinceI'm doing a lot of cool stuff in my bathroom area, just make a copper room.

Jason Hommel 25:29
That would be luxurious and beautiful.

Matthew Blackburn 25:31
It's is minerals are fascinating. How they all have different crystals have different minerals, but yeah, so. So back to zinc. We could talk about copper all day, which is just fascinating. And I know it's connected, right. One thing, burning, burning question I had for you is like, and I asked this question your group. And it's a confusing one. But the ratio like I went down this rabbit hole just looking at PubMed studies of the zinc copper ratio. And I think I posted a few in your group. And it was basically saying that the ideal was a one to one. You know, when they're looking, I guess in the blood, right, which we already said it's not a complete picture. But just seeing how that translates to, I think what you said is, when you supplement, the ratio should be like, What, no more than a 15 zinc to one part copper? Which is really different from the one to one. So I'm just wondering where like, wouldn't the supplement have to be one to one to to create that one to one ratio and a body? I'm just kind of wrapping my head around that?

Jason Hommel 26:46
I think that's a very great question. So I have tried also to figure out the answer to that question for years. And it was only recently that I had heard that the the person who originated the 15 to one ratio, I guess, was Carl Pfeiffer. And he was an anti copper advocate, an advocate of copper toxicity. But he did recognize, I guess that, you know, we do need some copper. And I guess he recognized that zinc could deplete copper. And I guess, at the 15 to one ratio, I tried to look for the rationale for that ratio that we see everywhere. And the the only best rationale that I can find is that if you don't take any copper, it's a huge problem. And that the if you take some copper, that 15 to one ratio, might be enough to mitigate the zinc, inducing a copper deficiency. In other words, that is the upper limit of an appropriate ratio. And if you go above that, you're going to be in trouble. So 20 to one, you're going to probably be in copper deficiency. And in fact, what we found, I think we mentioned this on the first show is that a woman ate five years of nothing but oysters and developed copper deficiency, and I looked into it. And the oysters have a ratio of about 15 to 18 to one zinc over copper. They also have a bunch of other toxins, which makes them a non kosher food because they're bottom dwellers and I don't like oysters for that reason. I also don't like liver, because liver is just disgusting. But that indicates that that's a very bad rationale. Okay, that basically, that would be an absolute minimum for copper, it doesn't speak to what would be an ideal amount of copper, which of course, would be an entirely different ratio. So some people have said, well, the 15 to one ratio was bad, we've recognized as as bad, so therefore, eight to one is better. Okay, well, that's a good first step, and recognizing that the 15 to one ratio is bad, and can pretty much lead to copper deficiency, and it doesn't really solve the problem. So but why did they only go to eight to one, there's no specific rationale there either. And the only rationale I can find is that because people are still, by and large, terrified of copper toxicity, and they don't know a thing about copper. So the amounts that I was taking, I actually inverted the ratio, and I went all the way, you know, 100 milligrams of copper, and only 10 milligrams of zinc. And I discovered that No, I had a few months after a few months of that. And I did that on purpose when I was writing the book as I was finishing up the book because I wanted to figure out 1 I wanted to maximize copper. I didn't want the zinc to hurt it. But I led that I realized that that led to some symptoms of zinc deficiency. So I bumped up the zinc to about 25 milligrams, that solves some of my own zinc deficiency problems like low libido, and some, but I still had that dry skin problem. I bumped it up again to 50 milligrams. And I was having some sneezing. And I'm like, it must be springtime allergies. And I bumped it up to about 100 milligrams of zinc in all the allergies went away immediately. And I was like, Oh, I'm so much better. I'm no longer allergic. And I realized, yes, you know, these allergies we're all told, oh well I'm not an allergy person that's my brother's problem. So I'm, it's not me. But look, if we're sneezing and we're having a runny nose, that's allergies, you don't have to wait for a diagnosis from a doctor. And it doesn't take a rocket science to know that you're sneezing and you're having a runny nose problem. f you're sneezing and you haven't got a runny nose problem. That's really a problem of low zinc. Take the zinc, you'll feel better almost immediately.

Matthew Blackburn 30:19
Yeah, that's incredible. I grew up sneezing my like, I was a very sick child. I mean, my parents did the best they could like all of our parents, but I just remember being severely allergic to dust, where I would just sneeze for, you know, 10 minutes if I had one whiff of dust. You know, if people were cleaning the house whenever my parents were and I was probably zinc deficient my whole life. I mean, that's been what I've been thinking about the last several months is, you know, what nutrients was I not getting for the first like three decades in my life, it was probably multiple things.

Jason Hommel 30:58
Right, right. You know, it's interesting, you say this, you know, allergies. Were a problem for me about maybe 15 years ago, and I was in the precious metal newsletter writing business and another precious metal newsletter writer, he said, Jason, you got to look into chelation. chelation is where it's at chelators they can you know, reverse heart disease and pull the calcium out and I had heart disease and we got to get the word out about chelation, you have to get the word out. So I, I tried some chelation, sure enough to help my allergies because chelators. And this is very interesting topic, chelators remove a lot of toxins. But they also unfortunately, remove a lot of our good micro minerals like copper and zinc. So what's the interesting thing is that the problem of chelators is actually the solution because copper itself is probably the best natural chelator out there. People know that chelation should be working, they know that it's a problem because it eliminates minerals, minerals are the best chelators copper creates so many different detoxifying enzymes, and so does zinc. Zinc makes the metallothionein,metallothionein which is the chelator of all the other toxins. So all these autistic kids are having Mercury problems or whatever. It's zinc and copper are the solution. But part of the problem is in copper deficiency, they test high with copper in the blood. So they all think they're copper toxic, which is leading them away from the exact solution. So there's just this learning curve of getting past this counterintuitive nature that copper can be high in the blood during copper deficiency. That is the key factor and the hardest thing to understand.

Matthew Blackburn 32:44
Yeah, I'm glad you brought up chelation because the whole detox thing is still, you know, trending. And people are always looking for the latest and greatest supplement to chelate their heavy metals out, do a heavy metal detox, right, but you could just search zinc, cadmium, and there's tons of studies showing how zinc actually will chelate cadmium and same thing with with magnesium and copper, right, they all chelate different heavy metals out of your body. It's like we don't need to micromanage and like, you know, take take these crazy supplements to try to like get it out. Just, you know, fulfilling our mineral needs, right will allow our body to naturally excrete these heavy metals that are just coming in every which way.

Jason Hommel 33:31
Well, the other thing is that, you know, the copper toxic applicants, they recommend zinc and vitamin C in order to lower copper and they get pretty good results. Why? Because zinc is an excellent, excellent mineral. That's why and so is vitamin C, you know, both of those are also very strong detoxifiers. And if you're detoxifying all these toxins that are creating all of the problems you're gonna get significantly better. It's the drawback of them failing to acknowledge that they need a lot of copper to as additional detoxifier they would get even better results because of they're all just miss misled by the high copper in the blood problem.

Matthew Blackburn 34:13
Hmm, interesting. Yeah, I'm glad that you shared your story about high dose and copper without the zinc because I think you did it longer than me. But I did that for I don't know maybe two or three weeks. And I guess I could share the story here because I haven't said it on my show. Yeah, the first time I experimented with high dose copper was mid interview with a frequent guest Atom Bergstrom that I've had on the show multiple times and we were two hours into the interview and you know, that's a long time so I felt like I was starting to hit a wall so as I grabbed my copper sulfate here on my desk and just started rubbing on my hands as I was listening to them and talking with them. And I think I ended up rubbing on like 15 dropper falls within like 10 minutes I just kept rubbing and all my hands And this kicked me up. I was just like, I want to see if this works, you know, and I started to feel this, like nausea, which I never get with anything, ever. And it only lasts like 45 minutes or so. And I just push through it, you know, I just keep the interview going. And when we get to the three hour mark, I just get the second wind in this boost. And I just felt like I could go another three hours. It's like, okay, wow,

Jason Hommel 35:33
So the copper kicked in. Right, right. Right. But nausea, right?

Matthew Blackburn 35:38
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I think I was applying about that amount. I'm a relatively healthy guy. Like, I think I could experiment pretty safely. I don't, you know, recommend it to people, you know, on the internet off the bat. I say that just this is what I'm doing, not recommending it. And I was very clear with that. But what I noticed, like you said, the symptoms, I noticed dry skin, like my hands are very dry. And my sleep quality was going down. And maybe libido too. And yeah, then when I went to add it in zinc, it just felt like I was myself again. It's like, oh, wow, this is excellent.

Jason Hommel 36:17
That's great. So there's a guy on my forum who just today mentioned, you know, the copper nausea problem. He said, Well, I took zinc the night before. And then I tried to take copper in the morning in a way that would make and give me nausea. And he said, I had no nausea at all. So it could very well be that the nausea problem is a low zinc problem.

Matthew Blackburn 36:40
Interesting. Yeah. I'm, I'm really curious what the upper, the upper limit with zinc. This morning. I read and some biohacking group they showed a picture of Dave Asprey and they're saying, you look so old, and, and someone commented that, you know, he's like, big biohacker guy, anti aging wants to live to like 150, or something. And someone commented, and said that, he recently made a comment that he thinks his hair went Gray from high dosing, zinc. But maybe, right? Because it's the balance, right? Because if you have both zinc and copper coming in, in the right balance, your hair is not going to go gray, and it could could reverse actually, right, even with zinc coming in. But if all you have is zinc coming in-

Jason Hommel 37:26
Then you're gonna have that deficiency and your hair is going to go gray. That's right. Wow. Interesting. Yeah.

Matthew Blackburn 37:34
Yeah, it's funny when you start talking about vanity stuff.

Jason Hommel 37:39
So the interesting thing happened to me. About two weeks ago, a doctor called me up out of the blue. And he thanked me so much for writing my book on copper. And then we went over several issues that we've already talked about just now. And then he said, Well, Jason, I'm good friends with Walsh of the Walsh Institute, who believes in and teaches this copper toxicity. And how can I, you know, talk to him about it? And why is it that he's getting such great results with zinc? And, you know, vitamin C? And what do you know about that? And so we went over things and the gray hair and stuff. And he's like, Well, it's interesting, you mentioned that, because Walsh is like, has completely white hair. And his face is very wrinkled, but he's old and in good health. So, you know, I mean, you know, once again, zinc is great, and you know, Vitamin C is great. And maybe he's holding his copper deficiency at bay. Because, you know, with zinc and vitamin C are able to make quite a bit of collagen. Those are, you know, three, two of the three big cofactors for collagen formation, but he still needs his copper, and he's probably induced a copper deficiency into himself because of his bias. So, but managed to stay healthy. It's very, very interesting.

Matthew Blackburn 38:51
Yeah, I bet most humans on the planet have some chronic deficiency that just goes unnoticed for their entire life, right? Or multiple.

Jason Hommel 39:03
It has to I was in so many deficiencies back in my days when I was drinking alcohol, but you know, I've been sober 10 years now. So yeah, I'm doing pretty good.

Matthew Blackburn 39:15
That's awesome. Yeah. And I guess I want to make this point to like the, the food only people versus like, there's, there's kind of like a camp that just says, you know, you're going to imbalance the body If you take supplements, especially isolates. And so don't overcomplicate life, just eat whole foods, but I mentioned earlier, right, the potential liver problem, the beef liver being being devoid of copper. And I think people just don't realize, I mean, you mentioned glyphosate, but there's NPK fertilizer, there's acid rain, there's bio sludge, which they're dumping on farms. they're watering it with chemicalized tap water. This are our whole foods are not good enough. And that's very triggering for a lot of people, right? I mean, they're still we have to eat, they're still worth eating, you know, there's better ones than others, but you will induce deficiencies over time if all you eat is whole foods, right? And you take no supplements.

Jason Hommel 40:24
I agree with you, you know, our food supply only gives us about 0.6 milligrams of copper or less for the average person that's 80% of people. And that was a few years ago when they did that study. And it's been going down and down ever, for quite a long time. You have to go back about 60 years and most people got five milligrams of copper which is now nearly you know 1,000% More our recent ancestors to fought in World War Two people are like well, we're different people today I don't know if we could really even fight a world war two like I mean, think of, you know, our our younger generation, who are called What are they called the kid let's not insult them, so don't want to say that, but they're called snowflakes right? And yet, our older generation who are now dying off who fought in World War Two, they stormed the beaches in Normandy when they were under fire. I mean, how badass is that every single one of those guys was equivalent of like a Rambo that we don't then doesn't even exist anymore. I mean, it's just it's crazy the changes, right? And so we need copper and zinc for testosterone production, and we just flat out don't have that explains that the snowflakes and soy boys really clearly. I mean, these are big problems, societal problems, So people who would think, look, I'd love to live in an ideal world, why wouldn't have to supplement but we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a very artificial world. You know, I'm surrounded by bromine in the carpets and in the bread supplied and the couches and pajamas, we get fluoride exposure everywhere, even when we try to avoid it fluorides. In grapes, it's in all dried fruits It's in GoreTex and Teflon pans if you go to eat out and they cooked your food on a Teflon pan that you didn't know about. You're getting fluoride. If you drink water in a restaurant, and you're traveling, you're getting fluoride, you just can't I mean, they've said babies babies in the womb, freshly born have a whopping 600 different toxins in their blood. Known toxins that have been categorized and they know are toxic. Again, what was the thing I mentioned time and time again, on our first show, we have like, the average person has five substances in their body, that all deplete copper, and then we all have them in a body at levels above copper. We are not in a natural world and try to getting things naturally is just colossally stupid at this point. I mean, what is the whole environmental movement about because we know that there's toxins in the environment, and and people are so stupid that in California, they're banning straws, rather than banning fluoride from the water that Democrats who gained power appear to be the most copper deficient. Let's put it that way.

Matthew Blackburn 43:10
You just blew my mind with the the gore tex piece I for a short time I was folding clothes, I worked at a clothing department at a sporting goods store before I moved to the scooping department, and in all the snowboarding skiing outfits, the high end ones $500 jackets, like gore tex, and you just said there's fluoride made? That's wild.

Jason Hommel 43:36
Yes, well, I mean, it's just it's one big string of fluoride molecules on there. I can't believe that that stuff is even allowed to be used. And it's the same stuff that's used to make GoreTex, fluoride. It's in glide dental floss. And there's a study my copper book that shows that glide dental floss is linked to lower IQ and brain problems. And the only way to like deal with that is to take inorganic iodine, and inorganic boron, and copper in large enough amounts to detox this stuff, because the average person, and there are people above average, and there's people below average, but the average person has 2600 milligrams of fluoride in their bodies. And the average person is just on the verge of having skeletal fluorosis, the average person is on the verge of having skeletal fluorosis. That means if our society doesn't change things the majority of the people will soon be quickly having skeletal fluorosis if we don't change something that's wild to me, but that's where we're at.

Matthew Blackburn 44:38
That is crazy. Yeah, yeah, you got me interested in the iodine because I was taking that for several years, years ago, and I stopped, because I got caught up in some, some fear articles about it, shutting down the thyroid or something. But I like the Nascent Iodine and I've been experimenting with, you know, 10 milligrams of boron a day which I think can you do 50? A day, which I haven't gotten up to that yet

Jason Hommel 45:05
Yes, I do 100 milligrams of iodine, 100 milligrams of boron. 100 milligrams of zinc. 100 milligrams of copper. That's a good ratio. 100 milligrams of everything.

Matthew Blackburn 45:16
What form of boron are you doing? Because I know the boron bisglycinate can get pretty pricey, right?

Jason Hommel 45:22
So the cheapest is borax. 20 mule team, it's just a box, it's about four bucks that will last you a lifetime. I took we take an eighth of a teaspoon of that in each of two morning coffees, and an eighth of a teaspoon has about 50 milligrams. one full teaspoon has a whopping just over 400 milligrams. A heaping teaspoon has about 600 milligrams. So it's like piled on.

Matthew Blackburn 45:44
Oh, yeah, I think I've taken that orally a few times. But I mostly put that in my bath. That's, that's pretty cool. Yeah, and earlier to the the doom and gloom, just to give some some light to what we're saying. I think, you know, the, the idea to me, is to have more farmers people that are doing it, right. Like, it's not about spraying copper on the soil. It's about, like, putting it in the seeds. Like I think it's like soaking are spraying the seeds with copper sulfate solution. And not, not many farmers are, are doing that. So I'm putting up a growing dome here, a little biodome, in North Idaho this this year. And my my idea is just to be the example just to show like yes, even though I'm supplementing, we should be moving in some direction. You know, ideally, where we're creating nutrient dense foods that actually have copper. You know, when we're living in a copper desert, desert world, we need to,

Jason Hommel 46:48
The copper toxicity people, they warn that too many farmers are using copper sulfate as a, as an additive unnatural additive that's poisoning us all. Which is just again, wild to me. Not very many of them are as you know. Yeah, it's wild. I mean, it's it's so much talk about with with zinc. I want to mention that one thing before it gets away from me. And that is some zinc actually helps us absorb copper. So I found they found that with like, almost no zinc, less copper was was absorbed, at 13 milligrams of zinc, more copper was absorbed or the most. And then again, high levels of zinc. There's that counterbalancing low copper effect. And this was only on people taking the average of say 0.6. Or maybe it was like that, sorry, 1.2 milligrams of copper as a supplement. We have absolutely no idea what the exact amount of peak absorption would be. If we were taking like the heaping amounts of copper that we're taking, like 20 to 30 milligrams, it could be an entirely different number. We really don't know, we should just experiment.

Matthew Blackburn 48:02
I love it. Jason, have you looked into the half lives of copper and zinc? Like the timing? Because I thought I read that copper was like, What 20 hours or is it was pretty long.

Jason Hommel 48:15
I think the half life of copper in the body is 22 days. But most copper is metabolized within about two hours. And then even though the half life is 22 days, the reality is, is like so they do the studies over the course of a month or two. And what they found was that in the first week, there was a lot of copper absorption. And then by like week four, copper excretion dramatically increased because it takes a while for the Metallothionein enzymes to build up and other copper excretion enzymes build up, then the body gets very good. And it sort of catches up to the initial input of copper and then almost all the copper gets excreted. So within 30 days, the body is excreting 90% or more of the copper that's being taken in which is again another great example of why copper can't be toxic because we learn to excrete it fast. It's almost like taking copper we learn not only to excrete the copper but we learn to excrete all the other poisons.

Matthew Blackburn 49:21
Does that also apply for zinc Jason like the if you mega dose zinc like we talked about the start where you excrete a lot of it?

Jason Hommel 49:21
So I haven't seen anybody complain about zinc building up in the body, which is very interesting like they do with copper and I think copper only builds up in the body because copper gets attracted to other poisons. And so that really only happens in copper deficiency that copper is building up because we need enough copper to detoxify the other poisons otherwise the copper will be attracted to the poisons and stay there. So since nobody's complaining about zinc building up I think it the body probably just excretes it just fine. I was looking like because you told me you took 300 milligrams of zinc. I was looking and I had read that, you know, over 150 milligrams and the 300 milligrams didn't causes problems. So wanted to see what those problems were. And it was very interesting. They said the pretty much the only problem is that it will deplete copper. That's the problem. And then they said and thenhere's the funny thing. Here's the funny thing, then they said, and there's no antidote. Well, wouldn't the antidote be to just take the copper? So funny? So funny. They can't even figure that one out.

Matthew Blackburn 50:33
That's hilarious. Wow. Yeah. Cuz if you did the math, would it be 300 divided by it's been a while since I've taught math, but 300 divided by 15, 20. Wouldn't technically, if we're going on a 15 to one ratio, you'd only need 20 milligrams of copper to balance out 300 milligrams of zinc.

Jason Hommel 50:53
And that would be a 15 to one worked, you probably need to take about 40 milligrams of copper for a little while.

Matthew Blackburn 51:01
Yeah, are you uh, are you also taking selenium? Because you mentioned you're taking pretty much everything right?

Jason Hommel 51:07
Yeah. So funny thing is I haven't really started taking a high dose of selenium because selenium is a little bit expensive. So I just take the standard 200 micrograms. I have read though, that selenium toxicity will kick in at levels 200 times higher than that, where a supplement manufacturer or one time accidentally released a batch of selenium that was 200 times stronger than it should have been. And that's when people develop toxicity symptoms. I don't think anybody died. So selenium appears to be very safe up to that 40 milligram range, but I think it's just very expensive. So you know, you know me, I like the cheaper supplements.

Matthew Blackburn 51:48
Yeah, we need like a 20 Mule team styled selenium wonder what that is? Is there anything else you want to I think we have a bunch of notes there. Right, Jason, any other subjects on on the topic of zinc

Jason Hommel 52:03
There are a couple of ones I wanted to mention. And that is, first of all, zinc helps us make retinol binding protein. So zinc is actually the solution for vitamin A toxicity. And I looked into this whole vitamin A toxicity thing, I don't think probably affects you because you're too young. But vitamin A can be bio accumulative. And if it the theory goes that if the liver gets over full of vitamin A, that then gets stored in the fat tissues. And if the fat tissues then get over full of vitamin A, it starts coming out in the skin. And as an as a retonic acid or as an acid, it starts causing things like rashes in the skin. And we were getting these really tiny little rashes, Jennifer and me and my wife. And so we decided to test the low vitamin A diet. And so we just had a lot of beans and rice, Mexican food, right? And sure enough, all of our rashes immediately stopped. And we're like, Oh, really. So our problem is because we eat out a lot, and we try to eat healthy and we're health nuts. We're like, oh, sweet potato, yay, more vitamin A, but it's in the safe form, because it's beta carotene, no problem. Yay. But it turns out that, theoretically, all of the beta carotene can get converted into retinoic acid, because a beta carotene actually gets converted very easily in the presence of copper. And a beta carotene is really two retinoic acids bound together. So if it all gets processed, maybe we're overloading ourselves. And so it's interesting that zinc is a great for rashes, and it binds to retinoic acid, which can cause rashes. So it's a very interesting link there. I mean, zinc is an anti histamine, but anti histamines where are they released? They're released only in response to toxins but zinc also eliminates the toxins. So there's a lot of real interrelations there.

Matthew Blackburn 53:53
Yeah, and also acne, right? Like a lot of skin issues, because I had, it wasn't really severe acne, but it was maybe on a scale of one to 10 It was like a six or seven it was, you know, I had like a pimple on my face every single week, which was embarrassing and annoying. But that from from what I've seen a lot of skin issues are caused by vitamin A deficiency. Zinc deficiency. Maybe copper plays a role there but I know vitamin A and zinc for sure are have been used, you know they have Accutane right synthetic Vitamin A.

Jason Hommel 54:31
Vitamin a for the skin yeah. Right, right. So one of the things that we My wife has read was that to acne is largely a problem of fluoride. And then once you go through the fluoride detox, it's no longer a problem and what happened to me in my mid 40s, I've never had acne on my back, but I developed this huge, huge acne in my upper back area. And it turns out that I was consumed over consuming a lot of fluoride foods and Jennifer clued me in. I was eating a lot of chicken and it had a lot of fluoride it was eating a lot of dried fruits, it has fluoride, especially raisins, which are grapes which are have have a lot of fluoride. And even a lot of grapes and cherries, which are sprayed with fluoride because they don't want them to rot. So I was eating a lot of foods with fluoride in them. And that could have been responsible for me for developing back acne in my mid 40s of all and so the first thing that I did was I started consuming potassium iodide because it's a much stronger form of iodine than just Lugol's solution. And I was able to get my iodine consumption up to 2000 milligrams a day, which I did every day for about a year with Jennifer and my first month on that and all my acne problems almost all of it completely went away because it detoxes fluoride I was also doing the boron and copper at the same time so because it was doing several things at once to detox fluoride all the acne problems went away.

Matthew Blackburn 56:06
Wow, you say 2000 Was it milligrams or micrograms?

Jason Hommel 56:12
No milligrams, not a typo, thank you for correcting me. So Lugo's you can only go up about 100-200-300 milligrams, and it starts to like, be real acidic, and burns your eyeballs and things like that. So potassium iodide is a little bit softer and easier and gentler. And you can use that form to go up to 2000 milligrams of iodine, but it's in the form of the iodine, which is because it's bound to the potassium. It's a little bit gentler on the system.

Matthew Blackburn 56:42
Yeah, I saw the post of your wife, Jennifer, you guys painted her yousaid head to toe and Lugols iodine one day.

Jason Hommel 56:50
That was Yeah, we did that long time ago. So that was Lugols and she actually developed a weird depression from that, which we solved with copper. And so then that kind of led me to think well, why in the world was she depressed? Because iodine does not cause depression, but fluoride does. So did we stir up a ton of fluoride because we knew that was or one of our problems from taking Prozac, which is a fluoride and copper fixed it right away. The other great thing about zinc that I wanted to mention was the zinc. Get this just like copper lowers iron. So there's two reasons why we no longer have to worry about, say giving blood to lower our iron. Both zinc and copper will do it.

Matthew Blackburn 57:30
Interesting. Yeah, I just gave blood I'm gonna keep experimenting with it just because it feels good. But uh, I've been, I just had my second one done, you know, two months apart. And I didn't feel as energized as the first one. It was interesting. But that's, I didn't. I didn't eat a full meal before. I think that played a role. I didn't get a full night's sleep before the donation. But it does seem like a nice tonic to the body as Morley calls it to donate blood. Yeah, what when's the last time you've donated? Jason? I'm just curious.

Jason Hommel 58:04
Alright, so I have a type two bleeding disorder. And so I think I've been identified as one of those people who can't get blood. So I and as a bleeder, right, I've been fighting my whole life to hold on to the blood that I have. So I'm not really so keen on wanting to give blood. I'm just glad that I haven't had any nosebleeds in the last four years. I want to tell you one more thing about zinc that it did for me lately, and that is this helped me has helped helped me gain about 11 pounds. I've always considered myself a hard gainer in the gym. You know, I go to the gym and I lift I expect to grow and growth never happens. And I might just always stuck at 222 pounds. And the reason why I get stuck is because I start developing allergies. I get over full and my stomach digestion suffers. I don't feel like I can eat any more food. So how can I gain weight, if I can't eat any more food, I go to sleep and my nose is all congested, or I get allergies. And I feel congested in my stomach and in my nose. And I'm telling people because I'm writing and I'm in the forum and talking about copper all day long. And how people need to also take zinc and zinc is great for allergies. I finally put two and two together. Oh, this is allergies I'm having. So this is a histamine reaction I'm having. So let me just if I just take more zinc, and that keep my nose clear, and it will improve my digestion Does this mean I can gain weight without this problem happening now that I know the solution. So I've been taking more zinc and taking more, more vitamin C. And so very quickly, I was able to gain weight without having all these problems that were developing every single time I was trying to gain weight. Now, yes, a lot of this food is probably in my belly and I'm probably a little bit more fat than I should be. However, I don't have the symptoms that fat man has of the congested nose and difficult allergy problems. And I'm suddenly getting rapidly stronger in the gym. And that's the big thing.

Matthew Blackburn 59:57
That's awesome. Wow, it It's interesting, you brought up digestion because that's one thing that shocked me about the zinc deficiency. Like I have a study here from the University of Munich 2016 That just a minimal zinc deficiency impairs digestion, which is fascinating.

Jason Hommel 1:00:17
Yeah. Interesting. That is interesting. So the one thing we need zinc for is to make hydrochloric acid. And hydrochloric acid is basically our main digestive juice. So that's why that's important. But zinc is also a key factor in making collagen along with copper and vitamin C. So this trio of zinc, copper and vitamin C, making collagen Well, what are we trying to do when you go to the gym and build muscle muscle is 30% collagen. You know, collagen is what gives the strength to our fibers in our system. In fact, I was looking up bones for the copper book, because I was thinking bones were mostly all calcium. The number one ingredient in bone is collagen. It's 35% collagen, it's not calcium, and the calcium has to go deposited into the bone into somewhere, and it gets deposited into the collagen matrix that has to be there first. So we really need zinc and copper and vitamin C for our bones first before we need calcium.

Matthew Blackburn 1:01:16
Yeah, I think I read in the book, the calcium lie, he listed like 12 minerals that are a part of bone and one of which was calcium, but it was like copper, zinc, magnesium, like boron might have been in there, it was a pretty significant list.

Jason Hommel 1:01:33
In fact if you just take if you just take a ton of calcium, and because calcium gets significantly over consumed, calcium ends up blocking, all the other minerals will start blocking the magnesium. And you need the magnesium to keep the calcium in solution. So what happens if you if you just take calcium, it doesn't even go into the bones because it needs all these other cofactors to get into the bones. And since it depletes all the other cofactors calcium ends up precipitating out in the blood supply and creating things like arthritis, stiffening the joints, and it creates arterial sclerosis and it creates kidney stones all sorts of problems just from taking calcium supplements. So most people in the alternative health community say no to taking calcium supplements. But there's a lot more we really need to do and we need to take all these micro minerals. Zinc and copper man, that's where it's at.

Matthew Blackburn 1:02:26
Yeah, and I think we're on the same page with with not supplementing zinc and and vitamin D to right? Which vitamin D increases calcium absorption.

Jason Hommel 1:02:37
So that's right. I mean, I don't take vitamin D, but I do try to get out in the sun and I will artificially tan in the winter, if I can't take the time to sun and during the summertime.

Matthew Blackburn 1:02:47
And one of the things I found fascinating Jason is you don't you said you don't supplement magnesium? Because your your theory is that you're retaining it with was it copper and boron?

Jason Hommel 1:02:58
That's right. Well, I've I've taken so I've taken magnesium because of the calcium problem pretty much for I don't know, six, six or more years. So at this point, I'm at some point, I have to be full of it. Right? Right. So we decided to go ahead and temporarily stopped the magnesium and see how we felt I was expecting I would develop some sort of muscle cramps or something, and it never happened. I don't really crave magnesium maybe. And there are problems with taking too much magnesium, it can deplete B1. And when people get depleted of b1 from magnesium, they can develop racing heart and racing heart is a very common symptom and problem out there among people who are taking all the supplements to try to get healthy and it could very well be from too much magnesium. So it does not mean that I don't think magnesium is good. I think I don't have a problem retaining it because I've got the copper and the boron. And magnesium is in the food supply copper. Calcium is in the food supply. You know, I eat milk and eat greens and grains and meat I have a very wide variety diet. So I'm getting magnesium. You know, I don't dispute that magnesium is used for 3000 processes. But if I'm not copper deficient and I'm not boron deficient, I probably don't have a magnesium wasting problem and therefore I probably don't need to supplement it. You know, I think we really need to supplement these minerals that help us detoxify again, magnesium is still a great detoxifier maybe I just don't need it. So I've decided to try to live without it. And we might go back and try some magnesium once a week just to be on the safe side. But I'm surprised that that I haven't developed any symptoms that I could pinpoint at all from not taking magnesium. Yeah, I would have expected at least some symptoms.

Matthew Blackburn 1:04:52
That is interesting. Yeah, on the affordability side. The most inexpensive magnesium because it's all magnesium is I think one of the most expensive minerals to supplement, but the the cheapest one is making your own magnesium bicarbonate. And I've been, you know, showing people how to do that for I don't know six years and it's basically just magnesium hydroxide powder mixed with cold soda water. So carbonated water, and the reaction makes magnesium bicarbonate. So it's that liquid form I think it's 50% absorption, and you just do shots in between meals, which that can create loose stools. I mean, when I was going too heavy on it, I was drinking a whole mason jar 32 ounces. And that gave me diarrhea for days. So you have to, you have to split it up.

Jason Hommel 1:05:43
I'm so amazed you said that, that the next thing I was going to say and this is one of the last things on my list is that bicarbonate, uses up zinc. Oh, so one of the symptoms of zinc deficiency is diarrhea.

Matthew Blackburn 1:05:59
It's all connected.

Jason Hommel 1:06:02
It's all connected. You know, I thought the show is gonna be a lot more boring because zinc is such a mainstream nutrient. You know, you go to the supermarket grocery stores, and you look at the minerals, there's a zinc, this zinc, that just zinc is everywhere. You won't find copper anywhere. So do people really need to be encouraged? Take zinc. You know, if they're on the high copper program, they certainly do need being encouraged because there are voices out there discouraging us. We're taking zinc with copper, but I think zinc is important to take with copper.

Matthew Blackburn 1:06:34
Yeah, and I even wonder for someone like me that that was vegan vegetarian for almost a decade. And most of my childhood I didn't like steak or ground beef. I was like, you know, chicken nuggets, kid. And fish. I didn't like red meat for the first almost 30 years of my life. And so I wonder how much zinc I was getting? For most of my life, it was probably very minimal.

Jason Hommel 1:07:01
You can get some zinc from beans. But if you're not eating any beans, then your zinc is going to be pretty low.

Matthew Blackburn 1:07:09
Yeah, fortunately, I was eating a lot of bean burritos, that Mexican food was my friends just get a veggie burrito and living on those probably had other issues though,

Jason Hommel 1:07:19
The really interesting vegans do suffer from zinc deficiency pretty typically the zinc deficiency and B 12. And one of the signs of that's associated with veganism is an anxiety problem. And zinc deficiency also creates an anxiety problem as well as a lack of joy problem. It affects our emotions significantly. So I don't know if you experienced that when you were a vegan or not. You tell us did you have like a anxiety problem when you were a vegan at all?

Matthew Blackburn 1:07:57
Yeah, sorry. It's your break it up for a little bit. I think that connection is good now. But I heard your question. Yeah, I definitely did. I had I was, you know, somewhat antisocial. I never imagined having a podcast or like, I had to take public speaking classes and in college and, you know, do more presentations. And it took me longer than most to break out of my bubble and be able to communicate with other people. So yeah, I'd imagine that was largely a zinc deficiency. And it's probably linked with testosterone too, right? Because I felt like, as my testosterone went up, so did my ability to communicate with other people.

Jason Hommel 1:08:38
It's amazing how it all ties together. Because right testosterone gives us the boldness that makes anxiety melt away. So it's very interesting. Those two are related as signs and symptoms.

Matthew Blackburn 1:08:49
Yeah, and you were saying, you're trying a bunch of different different different forms of zinc, and you didn't really notice a difference, like you tried gummies and I know there's one picolonate.

Jason Hommel 1:09:05
I didn't try zinc picolinate I guess, that's been identified as one that's not as well absorbed. But yeah, I do a zinc glycinate and quite a few different brands. We're not very brand loyal. We just try to buy, you know, supplements that are common and cheap, actually.

Matthew Blackburn 1:09:21
Yeah. Because that's the main question I got from people for this episode, what brand what supplement and they're just looking for a link and people capitalize on that I, you know, I always assess people's financials. And I'm like, you know, there's priorities here. Like, you know, I worked three jobs for years and was scraping by and barely making rent and I get it, if you're in that place. It's like yeah, 20 mule team borax, making your own magnesium bicarbonate. You know, copper sulfate is very cheap.

Jason Hommel 1:09:56
That's right, it adds up. So you got to be cost conscious. I think probably One of the most expensive supplements we're taking is the MSM, sulfur, it's about $20 that were $30 that we go through almost every month. So the zinc that we buy, I mean, people aren't what can I learn how to make the zinc by myself, you know, can I make zinc sulfate you can do you can just do the math and see what percentage of zinc sulfate is zinc and make it and dilute it into the dropper bottle just as you do the copper sulfate but I haven't found it necessary to do that because the pills are convenient. And you know, a bottle of 250 pills of zinc is like $14 that'll last me, me and my wife easily four months. So that's it's not really cost prohibitive to buy zinc at all.

Matthew Blackburn 1:10:43
Yeah, one thing I'm still diving into is all the gummies are the form of zinc citrate from what I found and you know Morley's very anti citrate because of its you know, effect on ceruloplasmin as well as ascorbic acid, but I know that that CP/ceurloplasmin can get too high. So I've been diving into that very heavily the last two months, and it's always a balance with everything, right? We don't want maximum as much as we possibly can get ATP, because that could cause problems. We don't want maximum as high as we can get ceruloplasmin. Right? It's all in balance and even the activity level of ceruloplasmin that needs to be in balance. Everything's in a range, right? We don't just want sky high everything. And so my point is, you know, even if citrate has an effect on ceruloplasmin, I'm wondering if it's if it's a balancing effect. But that, yeah, that citric compound is is interesting. Have you have you delved into that at all?

Jason Hommel 1:11:44
I asked Morley that question the difference between citrate and citric acid? And he said, No, those are two different things. But you know, I think they're both found in an orange. So I think he's more against artificially made citrate, which is probably made via a fungal growth process and the manufacturing

Matthew Blackburn 1:12:04
Got it. Do you want to go through some of these questions that we have? Jason, we have some good ones.

Jason Hommel 1:12:09
There's one last point I want to make about zinc. And it's sort of a dual point, it very commonly known that zinc is good as a germ killer. And so of course, it's copper. And over the course of this interview, we've gone over all these different things that zinc does, and has a lot of overlap with copper about what it does, it makes collagen kills germs, boosting the immune system, you know, boosting hormones, detoxifying. You know, all of that is all very, very good. And more important than ratios is deficiency levels, really. And so, you know, taking zinc and copper and vitamin C as a trio of supplements to start with, there's so many benefits, you'll feel so much better, eliminating those as deficiencies. And the side effects of just increased collagen production alone is worth it. But then we look at the synergy of germ killing and everything else and detoxification, it's really, it's really life changing when you add all three of those together. Especially because most people they only do like one or two, they don't do all three.

Matthew Blackburn 1:13:19
Right? Right. That's a good point. And before the show, too, I just wanted to bring this up on air because I thought it was fascinating. Maybe you have something to add. But in my researching zinc, I found the sacrificial anode on ships that was raised, you know, kind of in a boating area in southern California, where there's, you know, the docks installed the, the fishermen there, and there's, there's this zinc block. It's, it's basically put on us part of the hull of the ship, and it prevents this ship from rusting out from the saltwater. And as I was looking into it, zinc has a more negative reduction potential, like zinc is more negative voltage wise than iron. And so that's how it works. So it'll actually donate electrons, preventing iron from rusting on the complete opposite side of the ship like it's a conductive electricity process. Which is wild because that has to apply to our bodies if we have oxidative stress from iron overload. Imagine it's Copper and Zinc, helping prevent that corrosion inside of our body.

Jason Hommel 1:14:34
Don't they also use like a copper infused paint on the bottom of ships hullsto keep the barnacles from attaching to so they're using both zinc and copper, aren't they.

Matthew Blackburn 1:14:44
Yeah, I think even the sacrificial anodes have some copper in it. It's like a blend of copper and zinc but I think it's largely mostly zinc. But yeah, they both protect against rust and corrosion. It's so fascinating.

Jason Hommel 1:15:00
And of course in the body they both, what did we just learn? You know, they're they both lower iron. So they both are protective of iron in the body as well are protected against iron overload.

Matthew Blackburn 1:15:11
Yeah, that's really interesting. Amazing. Yeah, yeah, between my two full monty panels, it was two years. And I didn't donate between those two tests. And my iron saturation dropped. I think it was 12% just from increasing my copper. And I was slamming raw liver. I was doing like raw bison, liver, elk liver, beef liver, although, all the livers. And I think it wasn't until the end. So I started to supplement copper. But it's interesting that I lowered my saturation. I mean, I think it went out into my blood because my ferritin shot up. So I liberated the iron from my tissues. And so donating was a good idea.

Jason Hommel 1:15:57
Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.

Matthew Blackburn 1:16:00
But yeah, that's a good point you made that it was good-

Jason Hommel 1:16:04
once again, there's really not very many good tests for zinc, because it's really in the located in the muscles and in the bones and stuff. So it's without a good test. Again, I think it's best to test based on your symptoms, what symptoms are you having? Are you having any of the numerous zinc deficiency symptoms we've gone over, you know, going to your doctor to get a test? Or, or, you know, I don't trust the full monty panel to really notice whether or not like, it's a better test, when you discovered you had dry skin, and you fixed it almost immediately with zinc? It's a better test. Are you having a runny nose? Are you having congestion, we should be able to sleep at night with our mouth closed, or with even tape over mouth and breathe freely through both nostrils. If you can't, then you need more vitamin C, zinc and copper, it will take care of it.

Matthew Blackburn 1:16:57
Wow, that's really interesting, because a lot of people are doing the mouth taping or the nasal dilators, which is like a band aid for clogged nostrils. And I know if you're not nose breathing while you sleep, your your brain is hypoxic, right? You're you're not getting even intermittently, even 10 or 15 seconds in the middle of the night. That's 10 or 15 seconds that your brain isn't getting oxygen.

Jason Hommel 1:17:19
Well, man it's gotten to the point where I'm so healthy that if I have one nostril close up, it bothers me so much. I won't sleep at night at all. Because I know it's not the way it's not supposed to be. Whereas it used to be that was normal for the vast majority of our my life before I got healthy. But now it's such a dramatic change. I just drives me nuts.

Matthew Blackburn 1:17:43
Of those three, you mentioned copper, zinc and vitamin C, would you say one is more important? Or they're all equally important for that congestion problem?

Jason Hommel 1:17:53
That's a That's good. I think zinc is probably the most important one for the good ingestion problem. But a lot of people if the trouble is, most people are more copper deficient than they are in anything else. Me now. Because I'm not copper deficient. Because I'm on the highest copper plan because I wrote the copper block or whatever. For me lately, it's been low zinc, causing the problems. But I don't have the problem, like hardly ever. So I've got it really well dialed in. So for most people, when they start copper, they say, oh, you know, I can breathe so much better. Now this is great. And that's because they're mostly copper deficient.

Matthew Blackburn 1:18:32
Fascinating. Well, I'll be a good case study. I'm, I'm vulnerable, you know, with, with what I share with people, you know, we all have issues that come and go. For most of my life, I've had congestion. But what's interesting is it's not throughout the day. So like waking up, I'm good throughout the day. I'm good, but it always starts at night. And what's interesting is I noticed over the years even now with super, super high copper it's still there . And so I'm thinking it's probably a zinc and vitamin C deficiency probably?

Jason Hommel 1:19:05
Well, since you're already doing the high copper and zinc. I'll give you another tip. And that is green smoothies. I know you're living out in the boonies, and you're, I don't know how close you are to the nearest grocery or fresh greens. But when I started doing green smoothies, that was the number one thing that cleared out my nose, and nasal congestion. And what's been keeping it good lately is making sure that I'm getting enough zinc but I had a green smoothie today, you know, walked across the street from the hotel and there was a Tropical Smoothie place there and so I had access to it and those really worked for me too.

Matthew Blackburn 1:19:40
That's awesome. Yeah, it's interesting. I'll, I'll just keep keep upping my zinc and see if that if that does it. I didn't notice. I don't drink wine anymore. But I had a just a wine experiment for a couple years and you know, I'd have just a glass at night. And I noticed that made the congestion worse, which is interesting. Going back, you said about alcohol, right depleting copper and zinc.

Jason Hommel 1:20:06
And being a toxin, it's overloading your liver, your liver has to process it as a toxin, but you know what our green screens are very detoxifying.

Matthew Blackburn 1:20:16
Interesting. Yeah, we have quite a quite a few questions. Jason, did you want to jump into those? Or did you have anything else first to go into?

Jason Hommel 1:20:26
I think I've gone through everything in my, in my notes that I wanted to go through, oh, zinc I mentioned that sleep, right. We mentioned very briefly, but taking zinc at night, and by itself is a very, very helpful way to make sure that we get good sleep at night. But doesn't mean you can have to avoid taking zinc during the day. So what I do these days, if, if I'm about to do errands, or from just feeling a little stuffy, or whatever, boom, 25 milligrams of zinc, I tried to take the 50 milligrams of zinc at night. And that's how I get anywhere between 50 You know, 50 to 100 milligrams, depending on how much I've taken during the day.

Matthew Blackburn 1:21:05
Your psychic, because the first question was, when is the best time of the day to take zinc.

Jason Hommel 1:21:12
My torque field is strong.

Matthew Blackburn 1:21:15
So you must be

Jason Hommel 1:21:17
I take zinc on an as needed basis for your noses running, if you're having allergies, if you have dry skin, if you have, you know the symptoms, if you have rashes, take a zinc, break it up and as many times as you can, because if you really need to take a lot of at first, you know, it's better to take 20 milligrams five times a day than to take 100 milligram dose. And it's better to take it as you need it. And then make your symptoms go away for symptoms come back, take it as you need it. That way, you don't end up taking too much. So taking on as needed basis or taking zinc at night so that you can sleep is is definitely the key.

Matthew Blackburn 1:21:57
And we we absorb different amounts depending on the form, Right? Like that's what I was learning about applying like your copper sulfate, which is what the two ounces I think 1182 milligrams, and each drop is a milligram. But we only absorbs it. It's like 70% of that or something

Jason Hommel 1:22:18
I think we absorbed about 80% of copper sulfate. And then of like copper glycinate. It's 85% absorbed. But those figures are very weird, because if you'll note, they say we only absorb 50% of copper, if it's at one milligram and we only absorb 10% of the copper, if it's at 10 milligrams, these are wildly differing absorption numbers. So I don't know how they all do their math, but you read the studies and you can read enough studies, you see that enough stuff conflicts. So even when we only absorbed say 10% of our copper at 10 milligrams and 90% of it is excreted. How is it excreted? Is it? It's excreted through the liver and into the bile. So it had to have gotten absorbed at some point. So how are they even measuring all this? And what the heck do they even mean? People are not very clear when they write their studies, because they use their own industry jargon. And it's very hard to decipher what they're saying. Because I think half the time they don't even know what they're saying.

Matthew Blackburn 1:23:23
It's a good point. Yeah, recently, I've been reading a lot about ascorbic acid, you know Carl Pfeiffer and other people in that field with vitamin C. Therapy. And, you know, when you get into the multiple 1000s of milligrams, basically it seems conclusive that the more you take at once the less you absorb. So I think it was like, I don't know if you take one milligram. Hmm. Same with copper,

Jason Hommel 1:23:49
The more we take the less you absorbed. Same with iodine 90% of iodine is excreted and that's what the goal is to take enough iodine, there were excreting most of it because that's what they consider we finally reached the saturation point. What I find interesting about iodine versus copper in that way is that it takes about a year on on the high iodine program and 50 milligrams to reach full body saturation. And on copper, it only takes about a month to reach full saturation where we're excreting 90% of it. So if iodine is safe because we're excreting all of it, also copper is safe because we're treating it and nobody ever talks about zinc having an excretion problem. It's only that too much zinc will eliminate copper and create copper deficiency. So once we eliminate our fear of copper, gosh, how much zinc can we really take? You know so maybe your 300 milligrams of zinc with all the copper you're taking is perfectly safe. I can't really give you any warnings because I don't see any.

Matthew Blackburn 1:24:47
Well I can tell you my hands. I mean it's interesting reading in your group people's experiences because my hands still they'll get discolored if I rub you know a couple dropper falls on my hand. And I think one one woman in your group said she got blue hands at first for the first couple of weeks, and then it went away. And she's hasn't had them since high dose and copper. And so that's a, it's just interesting to me. Yeah, it's probably a lot of factors playing in right?

Jason Hommel 1:25:18
Well, I think once we get the zinc up, and once we get the vitamin C up, and college information is good, then we don't have the dry skin problem.

Matthew Blackburn 1:25:27
And you say, with a year on high iodine to reach full saturation, that was 50 milligrams a day.

Jason Hommel 1:25:34
That was it. It takes a year to reach full saturation at 12 milligrams a day. It takes about three months on iodine at 50 milligrams to reach the full saturation. That's how they settled on 50 milligrams being an acceptable amount because you shouldn't it shouldn't take you a year to fix your mineral deficiency problems should only take about three months.

Matthew Blackburn 1:25:55
I think on your site, you reference to Brownstein, right he has that like the iodine protocol.

Jason Hommel 1:26:01
So the original three iodine doctor for Brownstein, Flechas, and Abraham and Abraham has passed away and Flechas and Brownstein are both now retired. So it's up to us the next generation to keep talking about the high iodine protocol, so that it doesn't get lost to history. They did a lot of very great work that's still published at optimox.com are about 24 Different studies published by Abraham Brownstein and Flechas, that are historic studies that publish historic study results on iodine. In fact there's one I really ought to highlight for you. And it's this, they gave 3000 milligrams of iodine to 1000s of people and none of them had any thyroid problems whatsoever. And everyone who warns that iodine will cause thyroid problems, they say that 0.3 milligrams causes the problems. It's only because 0.3 milligrams is a deficiency level. And that same kind of utter nonsense, is in the world of copper studies, there's only two studies that I know of, where they say copper is a toxin because they gave people copper. One study, they only gave him the equivalent of 0.1 milligram of copper and the other study, they gave them three milligrams of copper, but they also paired that copper with known neurotoxic fats. And then they blamed all of the neurotoxic damage on the high levels of copper when it was clearly the neurotoxic fats that they did. So the great the slanderous studies on very low amounts, and then they claim that copper is the toxin when clearly that's not the case.

Matthew Blackburn 1:27:37
Interesting. Wow. Yeah, I found the the research tab on that website optimox. It's interesting, optimal levels of iodine for mental and physical health. Yeah.

Jason Hommel 1:27:47
You read all of that. That's some of the best health research anywhere. It's fascinating. You'll never be scared of iodine after you get through that.

Matthew Blackburn 1:27:56
Wow. Yeah. And earlier, I was just reminded, I wanted to ask you about B vitamins. And I think people even though we're going off the rails from zinc for a minute, I think people find it interesting. And you like, B 1-2-3-5? But the 12 and you avoid the 6 right? Because you said that you're reading that's a neurotoxin I Think?

Jason Hommel 1:28:21
So, too much B6 is a nerve toxin. And various governments have created various different very differing limits for B6 toxicity. The UK is limit is 10 milligrams, and a lot of the complex supplements you can get 50 milligrams of B6, and B6 can be noted as a toxin at even 20mgs. Which is why some governments have lowered it all the way down to 10. So yeah, I'm I'm taking copper and iodine. Why because they're both very good for the nerves, but every now and then I'd have like, you know, a little bit of peripheral neuropathy. And it could have been because I was taking too many B vitamins. And in fact, my ultra mag, which was a combination of five different forms of magnesium also had B6in it because B6is good for the heart, don't you know? And so I was double overdosing myself on B6 from the B complex I had which had 50, and then another 30 milligrams in the ultra mag. So I had to put a stop to that and sure enough, all the peripheral neuropathy symptoms went away and I feel a lot better. So when you learn more, you do better. And so now I'm no longer using, there is a B6, there are B complexes out there with no B6. But I decided to buy all the B's individually and I also didn't buy folate or folic acid because there's a very there's a lot of controversy over that one because folate is supposedly supposed to prevent birth defects but if you get over 800 million grams of folate it can actually cause birth defects. So what's going on there? And one of the problems of folate is that masks a B12 deficiency and the masking is like, the tests end up not working out, where have we heard that before? So if they try to test for a B12, the tests don't work if it folate is there because it fixes the shape of the blood cells or something like that. So but the point is, high folate can cause birth defects. So, and folate is also one of those things, it's fortified and all of our food supply everywhere. So I don't think we might be able to get away with not having any folate. And so one of the things I'm paying attention to is are we developing, you know, severe tiredness. That could be a deficiency symptom of folate, but I'm only tired because I work out in the gym a lot. And I, generally speaking, I'm not tired. So I think I'm fine. But so I think, we need to B3, B5, B7 and B12. Those are the ones I've tried to settle at, and I'm looking carefully to see if we develop any folate deficiency symptoms.

Matthew Blackburn 1:31:10
Yeah, I think since our last interview you brought up I think in the interview, it was , Abram Hoffer, and that was at the CIA, LSD mind control experiments been going down the rabbit hole. And I actually found a cool Abram Hoffer lecture on YouTube, I think it's two hours long. And I was watching that the other day. And he was It was fascinating. He was he was talking about, you know, he's all about high dose niacin. And he was talking about how he is seeing that cure schizophrenia multiple times. Like this girl was like hearing voices in her head. And then she, she found a magazine article that said niacin and for schizophrenia. And so she started experimenting. And she got up to like 60 milligrams of niacin and a day and the voices in her head stopped. But that was an interesting story.

Jason Hommel 1:32:02
Well, my niacin is a very good detoxifier the problem with niacin is it it also lowers copper. And these guys were anti copper advocates. If you look up their Wikipedia pages, it mentions that they were that they did the LSD experiments that they worked for the CIA, they were promoting and taking LSD. And if they're taking LSD, they're literally inducing schizophrenia in themselves. So you could see why they would then devote their studies to curing schizophrenia that they had induced in themselves. And so niacin is a general detoxifier. So let's not go a little too crazy with our experiments and create you know, you know, schizophrenia in ourselves, I think we're doing I think our experiments are a lot wiser than what they ever did. But also we're not being led by the CIA we're being we're being led by reason and logic and you know what works?

Matthew Blackburn 1:32:59
Yeah, yeah. So you're not putting drops LSD and your copper sulfate? No.

Jason Hommel 1:33:07
I, I will admit on the air to having taken LSD once in my 30s

Matthew Blackburn 1:33:13
Yeah, that was that the 70s?

Jason Hommel 1:33:21
I was born in 1970 so haha

Matthew Blackburn 1:33:26
I thought all the copper helped with great aging so haha did you ever do the niacan flush because this isn't it? Like it's like niacin trampoline sauna. It's like the protocol.

Jason Hommel 1:33:41
So there's a niacin and sauna detox protocol. I've never followed it. Jennifer followed that for a full 30 days. She liked it. It definitely did a lot of cleansing for her. She likes it. There were some problems with it, though. I think they have you take a lot of calcium. She didn't do the calcium. I thought the calcium would be a little excessive. They only take you up to 10 milligrams of copper and only towards the end of the whatever three to six weeks or whatever as they scale up the minerals. I think they also include manganese, which could be a neurotoxin. I don't I don't trust manganese as a supplement. I don't take manganese. Things like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew Blackburn 1:34:24
Interesting. This is a good one that we didn't talk about. Hopefully this episode doesn't get flagged. I think we're beyond the censorship a little bit but doesn't really matter but doesn't zinc help with the loss of smell? I actually experienced that for just a couple hours but I use methylene blue and that knocked it out.

Jason Hommel 1:34:52
Did you take so much zinc that it knocked out your smell? Is that what you're saying?

Matthew Blackburn 1:34:57
Well,when I had COVID Twice the First time I had it, I lost my smell and taste for it was like an hour. And then the second time around, I lost it for like couple hours. But I wasn't taking any zinc, or much copper back then I just slammed the methylene blue. Like I was doing like 60 milligrams at least a day of methylene blue.

Jason Hommel 1:35:20
That's great. That's great. Okay. So yeah, I think, you know, I had my have zinc deficiency. I don't think my smeller was working very good. And it had gotten better after I started taking zinc again.

Matthew Blackburn 1:35:34
Interesting. Let e see disease, zinc regulate excessive DHT and stop hair loss.

Jason Hommel 1:35:42
Zinc is indeed associated with stopping hair loss, but I don't know if it affects DHT directly, or whether it's another mechanism. Often hair loss can happen with dry skin or a subheric dermatitis is what they call it, right? It's like a, like a rash that people get kind of like a dandruff. Zinc should be stopping things like that. But again, zinc is only part of the issue, it can fix both. But we also need to eliminate the toxins that are the cause, or the root cause of rashes in the first place. The skin is an elimination organ, just like our other elimination organs. So things are backing up. If we have too many toxins, the toxins will come out in the skin. So it's really it's all about detoxifying and keeping the colon clear and things like that, when we shouldn't have those other problems. Jennifer actually had a rash on her head for 10 years straight, and we did everything we could to eliminate the rash on her head. And nothing was working. And I was absolutely surprised. Until finally one day I was watching Andrew Sol and his vitamin things and it gets to the end. And he says you guys have to stop all of your artificial colors. Because they can, you know, cause all sorts of things, including hair loss and subheric dermatitis and I'm like, oh, so I did remember reading something like that. No, it was probably not that. But I just learned that Yes. Okay, let's just stop all these are bad for you. And so I told Jennifer, we have to stop. And so we stopped it and it was 10 days later, her 10 year scalp condition cleared up, because she kind of had a fondness for some artificially flavored candies as well as you know, spicy chips. You can't go and find some red hot, spicy potato chips on a gas station that's not colored with artificial red dye number 40.

Matthew Blackburn 1:37:36
Yeah, that's wild. Yeah. And I think they put it in a lot of sodas too, right? Like, even though even the sodas in glass bottles like Fanta.

Jason Hommel 1:37:45
Maybe some red sodas. Yeah, almost any red food coloring. But then the other funny thing is that the guy who wrote his book on vitamin A toxicity, he said, if people are switching from these food dyes, then they're going over these natural dyes. Well, a lot of the natural dyes are beta carotene type dyes, which are not necessarily healthier, because they will also cause the same skin rashes, believe it or not, because they're toxins, the body treats them as a toxin and what toxins go they show up as skin rashes. So yeah.

Matthew Blackburn 1:38:19
Wow nteresting. Great question here Jason, what are the best absorbed forms of zinc? Would you say there are any forms to avoid like that don't work or ineffective? Or

Jason Hommel 1:38:35
Well didn't you discover that the picolonate was not as good?

Matthew Blackburn 1:38:41
Chris MasterJohn has an interesting video on that. And I think he was going off htma Though hair tissue mineral analysis which I questioned the accuracy of that

Jason Hommel 1:38:51
I do that too. Yeah, I don't. I don't put more stress than that or blood tests. There's no good tests, we go by symptoms. We have a zinc glycinate, the glycinate and the bisglycinate were very common for copper there. It's very common for magnesium and I just assumed it was going to be fine and I've had no problems. I would assume that zinc sulfate actually would be totally fine to just like copper sulfate is fine. Often we have the least toxicity it's sulfates because sulfate is itself a detoxifier. People who are mercury toxic and having trouble with sulfates but you need to have a clear sulfur pathway. Sulfur is a very important detoxifier most people have a third of a pound of sulfur in their bodies. Sulfur is not the toxic agent. It's the mercury. That's the toxic agent and we need to probably work on making sure that we're mercury free first. And in fact, people who have over successfully and overcome their mercury toxicity. Then learn to tolerate sulphurs. It's not that you need to tolerate sulfur. You need to get your sulfur detox pathways working. Stephanie Senath of MIT He has done an enormous amount of work on that. And we don't just need sulfur, but we need sulfur transporters like berries and coffee and dark beer to make sure that the sulfur actually gets successfully transported around the body so it can do its detoxification work.

Matthew Blackburn 1:40:15
Interesting. Well, I got the coffee covered. So

Jason Hommel 1:40:19
There we go by and I don't drink the beer. So that leaves coffee for me.

Matthew Blackburn 1:40:22
We had a question, does zinc increase sperm count? And there's actually a study zinc is is an essential element for male fertility 2018. And yeah, basically says it, it does increase the sperm motility and quality and all that you looked into that rabbit hole?

Jason Hommel 1:40:48
I haven't looked into that. But I do know that is good for fertility and boosting testosterone. I do know of course, you know, our whole society is suffering from lower sperm counts. And we're also are as a society, we're suffering from toxicity. And these minerals that detoxify, zinc and copper are very, very important.

Matthew Blackburn 1:41:09
This is a really interesting one, Jason is a guy that used to roast like a lobster in the sun in California. Does topical zinc and mineral sunscreen affect whole body mineral balance? I guess another way of saying does does rubbing zinc sunscreen on your skin improve your copper status.

Jason Hommel 1:41:33
So that's an interesting question. And whole body mineral status, I believe you probably can absorb copper through the skin or zinc through the skin just like you can absorb copper. We, Jennifer and I, we had a little experiment one time where we took the zinc before we went tanning, and we burn significantly. So it could have been the temporary zinc blocking the copper effect. Usually when we have our copper set up, we don't burn at all. So we looked at that, and we're kind of shocked. And that was just a matter of taking one zinc pill right before when tanning had that effect. So that's something to consider. And then, of course, there is a zinc oxide that, you know, is a white paste that people use to put on their skin directly when they get sunburn or protect these as a sun protector. But that has a drawback because if it's lowering copper in the skin could create a rebound effect where you're actually more sensitive to getting sunburn in the future. So if people are using zinc oxide, and I know ski racers used to do it, and I know lifeguards do it, you know, you need to balance that out. So copper internally so that that zinc doesn't overpower it.

Matthew Blackburn 1:42:42
Is it a myth that taking large doses of zinc helps with COVID? Yeah. Have you seen that? Anyone use that? And the benefits?

Jason Hommel 1:42:52
Let's not get into that. I think I think well, I'll just say I think if if you take so much zinc that you're depleting copper, that's a mistake, because we need copper for the lungs for quite a few reasons. So I, I'm more into keeping the minerals in balance than just taking zinc. I think taking zinc for COVID is a mistake. I'll put it that way.

Matthew Blackburn 1:43:13
How about this one, our white spots on the nails, a sign of zinc deficiency.

Jason Hommel 1:43:19
I would agree with that. They probably are but maybe not a very good sign. I don't know. I don't I don't get them at all. I don't have them at all. And yet I was zinc deficient. Because I know that I was having runny nose and allergies this spring. And when I would take zinc, those went away. I was having a little bit of low libido issues, I took more zinc and that went away. So there are other signs. But that could be a valid sign. But it just wasn't a valid sign for me. And maybe that's because copper was fixing those white spots in my nails or maybe boron or maybe iodine was fixing it.

Matthew Blackburn 1:43:55
This is a really interesting one. And I'm curious, your thoughts on this? Is Is it true that based on if zinc gives you a metallic taste or not? It tells you that your body needs it.

Jason Hommel 1:44:08
That's an interesting one. I had read that one. When I was first zinc deficient and we I was playing around with it. I think it's supposed to what is it? If you if you can't taste the zinc, then you're zinc deficient. And if you can, then you're sufficient. And what we did in my whole house is I couldn't taste the zinc at all and I was deficient. And only one person in the whole household my youngest Hayden when he was about five I thought it was horribly yucky. So but here's the thing with copper sulfate. Some people think copper sulfate is sweet. Other people think it is bitter. I'm like What sweet. No, you You're kidding me. It's horribly bitter. So I don't put too much faith in whether it how it tastes on whether or not you're deficient. The best way to to go by actual deficiency symptoms by learning what zinc actually does, when we know that zinc improves testosterone, you know, you can get a testosterone measure but uh, you can also test testosterone through looking at your libido is your sex drive high? If your sex drive is high, probably don't have a zinc deficiency for sex drive is waning, you are more likely to have a zinc deficiency.

Matthew Blackburn 1:45:25
Kind of esoteric one that's fun. Ask him to talk about the old notion of zinc being the male mineral and copper the female when someone else asked what planet zinc related to be looked into any any the weird stuff about it?

Jason Hommel 1:45:41
I don't put credence in that either, because we're all human. And we all need both. Some people say that women are more susceptible to copper toxicity, because estrogen leads to more copper and I that's I think that's completely false. People who talk about IUDs and the copper IUD is causing copper toxicity. That's false because not nearly enough copper can come off of that IUD to create problems. It's creating an artificial pregnancy well it raises estrogen, that's the problem. And estrogen raises copper because estrogens is a pregnancy hormone. And pregnant women need to have copper in their blood, let it get to the baby, because babies have desperate needs for copper because, you know, babies have 10 times more copper in their bodies per pound than adults do. And that is a sound refutation of copper toxicity because babies are not born copper toxic babies are some of the healthiest cohort of all human beings. You know, kids suffer from the least amount of diseases. I think the only reason why babies suffer a lot is probably because they're assaulted by the medical establishment so regularly. And then when kids reach reach about age five, they're no longer so regularly assaulted by the medical establishment. And it's really five year olds that have the least lowest mortality of all age groups of all humans. I was very happy when my kids reached age five. Let's put it that way.

Matthew Blackburn 1:47:18
Yeah, I was a teacher's aide and a substitute teacher juvenile hall for four years. And it is always think back to when I was out there for PE class with the kids. And I'll just never forget them like running around doing laps and I look up and it's just Tic Tac Toe chemtrails in the sky. And you know, then they're going back in and drinking tap water and eating their little packaged meals for lunch. And there's pregnant girls and they're just had a baby and I'm just like, this is really sad. I mean, these kids are so malnourished and poisoned. It's ridiculous.

Jason Hommel 1:47:56
So do you ever see any chemtrails above your house? You're living way out in the boonies. Right? Where are you living? Can you even say

Matthew Blackburn 1:48:04
North Idaho. Yeah, almost to Canada and in Yeah, actually almost every day. But I think sometimes there'll be some months off but then again, I hear they just spray at night sometimes, you know, they just switch it up and at night you can't see them right so. And that's that's part of my case for supplementation because I have, you know, anti supplement errs on my show, or I've talked to them or they're on social media or whatever, friends and I'm just like, look, this is just one more case for supplementation. I mean, you're not going to counter poisoning like that with food alone. Okay.

Jason Hommel 1:48:43
That's, that's right. We live in an artificial world. You know, babies are assaulted with 600 toxins. Good thing they get copper.

Matthew Blackburn 1:48:52
Yep. You kind of talked about this a little bit earlier, but best food sources for zinc. You said beans, right as one.

Jason Hommel 1:49:01
So yeah, so oysters are out. Actually, they're the highest in zinc. And they do have positive effects. But they're, they're so loaded with toxins. I'll want to cross them off the list. So really, it's beef. You can get about five milligrams in a serving or typical serving and because I'm a big guy, I usually measure my beef and pounds not ounces. You know? So what is it like something like five milligrams in three ounces of beef, but I'm always I'm always eating like you know, oh, I will order a bag of burgers please five of them. I'll give one to my dog and I'll eat for hamburgers myself. So and then the second one is probably Yeah, beans. So what's interesting is that the low vitamin A diet from Grant genereux is is beef beans and rice which are high zinc foods. And zinc makes that what is it the retinol binding protein so it's interesting. People pick their poisons right?

Matthew Blackburn 1:50:00
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Seeing if there's any other questions here. Yeah. Another one on symptoms, the size of the moons on your fingernails. Does that? Is that affected by zinc levels?

Jason Hommel 1:50:11
I don't notice really any very many changes of the moons on my fingernails. I have several fingernails with no moons and some with moons. years. I don't know if you can see there's a little bit of moon on this. On this one, right. On this hand. I have no moons. So I have a moon there on that one. And it's been that way for years. So I don't know if that's a very good indicator of anything.

Matthew Blackburn 1:50:41
Yeah, I've heard B vitamins. You know, because people try to diagnose by the nails, the ridges, the white spots, the you know, the moons. And I've heard B vitamins play play a big role in there are nails.

Jason Hommel 1:50:46
Yeah, don't look at nails, much of it as a symptom at all. And anything. I haven't really put too much credence in that I think be. I think there are nail readers who, you know, come up with these ideas. And I haven't found that to be too reliable. I think the nails grow very slowly. Whereas you can develop nasal symptoms extremely fast.

Matthew Blackburn 1:51:14
Why do I get headaches from from taking zinc? .

Jason Hommel 1:51:19
When people start detoxifying minerals and vitamins, they can develop headaches often because they're just stirring up so many toxins. And I think the answer is, the more different supplements you take that are deep detoxifiers, they all sort of help each other. One of the solutions for iodine headache is salt. And one of the solutions for the copper headache is vitamin C. I don't know why I just know that that's what happens. People in my forum who forget to take vitamin C often will develop those headaches. And I say we'll try the vitamin C because you haven't been doing all of it. And then they try the vitamin C and then they're like I had it and it went away in minutes. How did you do that? Well, thank you

Matthew Blackburn 1:52:12
Do you think we think maybe sweating and sauna could help to kind of push out those liberated metals?

Jason Hommel 1:52:18
Probably Probably. You know, making sure you're going poop enough, right? When I was always wanted to write the health book called The, you know, go pooping off and lose five pounds diet plan or something like that, you know, I mean, there's so many people are so constipated. That they really just need to, I don't want to take a laxative or take more copper or take more vitamin C and get the get the thing moving. When they say open up your detox pathways, I'll tell you most of the toxins that come out of the poop. So make sure you're pooping. Constipation is really, really unhealthy. So a lot of people they ask questions like, well, what can I take these things while I'm breastfeeding? I'm worried about toxins coming out of my milk, no toxins don't come out in milk, they come out in the poop.

Matthew Blackburn 1:53:07
I wonder if a lot of people just aren't retaining magnesium, right with the boron deficiency.

Jason Hommel 1:53:15
Consequently, you know, copper and boron are very, very seldom taken and what else is going to help us hold on to magnesium? So I think probably you know, if most people are suffering from boron and copper deficiency, then yeah, they're probably having magnesium retention problems, which sort of explains why the patients are over enamored with taking so much magnesium.

Matthew Blackburn 1:53:37
Yeah, interesting. Well, that was all the questions. Jason, this was a lot of fun. I knew it would be. And I'm sure it's a continued discussion. I like you're just experimental mind and that you're willing to, to experiment and change. That's admirable, and someone that's, you know, chronologically older.

Jason Hommel 1:54:04
Excellent. Excellent. Thank you so very much. I have enjoyed this discussion again. And thanks for having me back. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Matthew Blackburn 1:54:16
Yeah, yeah, and your website's revealingfraud.com. And you have a lot of great blog posts up there and resources. Right.

Jason Hommel 1:54:25
Thank you. I have written a lot more blog posts since I published my book, because I'm learning so much in the forum and in the feedback and in fact, I think I have to thank you for having me on your show. The first time I had only about 300 or 400 people in my forum. When you had me on the show the first time and we talk about an early adopter, you adopted me so early. Now we're up to in the forum and just a couple of months now from then now we're up to 3.6 thousnad people. So that's, that's been fun to watch that growth happen. I'm just I'm spending almost all my days answering all these questions in the forum and I'm so glad you post there on occasion and I was so glad to help you find your way into the zinc as part of the protocol. It was in there and the quickstart guide all along. But I'm so very glad that you found your way back into that. And how much vitamin C are you taking? That's the other part of my protocol. How much vitamin C are you? Are you taking?

Matthew Blackburn 1:55:18
Yeah, so Jason, you're open up a can of worms here with this question, but it's actually so I actually sell a whole you know, I have a supplement company my life and I sell whole food vitamin C, which I've been taking for four years, since discovering Morleys work and you know, studying the the tyrosinase thing and the bio flavonoids, but you had me look into Andrew Sol, Carl Pfeiffer. Abram Hoffer has some material that he did on on vitamin C. I known about Doris Low for several years. So I revisited her who says that Vitamin C IS ascorbic acid, they're synonymous terms. And there's no such thing as whole food, vitamin C in the clinical literature, it doesn't exist. And so she also said that ascorbic acid is a redox balancer. It's not just an antioxidant. And so she said, It's like our primary redox balance or in the body that reduction and oxidation that donating and accepting electrons. She said, that's all orchestrated like, like vitamin C is the conductor of that orchestra of that redox orchestra. So I've been just meditating on that. Obviously, vitamin C's needed to make dopamine. They often say it's just for the adrenals, you know, but it's also needed for brain function and dopamine, which I think a lot of people are just dopamine deficient. So yeah, just been having fun diving in. And to answer your question directly, I've just been experimenting with it. I feel comfortable now that copper is coming in taking it. Whereas if I didn't have any copper coming in, I would be skeptical. You know, like all the people the last two years taking ascorbic acid, without copper for COVID. I think that's a mistake. Just coppers part of that, you know, orchestra for immune system and energy and all that. So, yeah, been been just experimenting. I've tried like 500-1000 milligrams every hour, or whenever I remember. And from what I've researched, it's more about frequent doses, then all at once, like we talked about earlier, the absorption. I think, you know, if you took five, you know, five grams of AA, ascorbic acid, you only absorb like, I don't know, 10%. Like basically, the more you take, the less you absorb in one dose. But if someone has a cold or fever or something, their tolerance goes way up for it, which I found fascinating, where they could take 100 milligrams all at once, and have no bowel dump, you know. So it's interesting that our needs for vitamin C go up with with infections and things. So yeah, I've just been having fun looking into it with like a childlike curiosity and open mind. And just having a greater perspective of of it. But I don't think hopefully, Vitamin C is bad, I just think, is the active component that two atoms of copper or is it ascorbic acid in the whole food C I would have imagined it's the ascorbic acid. And I think you might have pointed out that it's a lot more expensive to take the food based form. You're doing just berry powders and trying to get up to 1000 milligrams of ascorbic acid that's quite a bit of whole food C, versus just taking the isolate.

Jason Hommel 1:58:55
You know, and there could be other cofactors in the whole food C in the plant nutrients. Besides just the lysine and the copper, I mean, I'm not saying the whole foods is bad. It's just expensive. And for my own needs, I think I would rather do the ascorbic acid, I think you covered the whole gamut of material there very well. I agree with everything. So I think I'll let you have the last word on that like they didn't that was good. I think you made a very good point that a ascorbic acid gets a lot safer with the copper that we're taking, because we're not depleting our copper. And we're so far ahead of our forebears, right, the offer the lake Hoffer and Pfeiffer who were advocates of C, I suppose, but we're not fans of copper. They didn't understand I guess what they were doing or maybe they did. Who knows? But I think we're doing it better. And that's that's the point. You know, when you know better and learn better, we do better. And I think we're doing really good

Matthew Blackburn 2:00:00
I agree. Yeah, it's really fun to experiment and connect these dots because someone has to experiment, right? Instead of just reading these people's material and just being, you know, an anti copper advocate like they were, it's like, no, how about we combine the information, take what's good, leave the rest and create a new thing, which is kind of doing with?

Jason Hommel 2:00:19
Well, you just can't, you just complimented me for having an open mind and look at you and your open mind looking into this again. And also, you know, given the fact you're selling whole food C, there's a potential conflict of interest right there. And I, I trapped you, I didn't know that I was gonna trap because I don't look at what you're selling. So well done, Matt. Well done.

Matthew Blackburn 2:00:40
I appreciate it. I mean, I would say if someone's not on your protocol, or not on copper sulfate, or not taking more than 10 milligrams of copper, they probably be better off with whole foods C, but if they are upping their copper, to, let's say, 50-100 milligrams, they might need more than Whole Foods C or something in addition to it.

Jason Hommel 2:00:59
Yeah, that's basically my position to you know, if we're taking a ton of copper, it can induce some headaches, and we need more detoxing power, and maybe Whole Foods C, you could get there. If your pocketbook was big enough, you didn't mind spending 10-20 dollars a day on it. Because I really think, you know, 1000 milligrams is almost the bare bones of vitamin C. In fact, I've experimented with how little vitamin C I can get away with. And if we did 1000 milligrams of vitamin C every fifth day, and I were I was getting a little microbleeds on my hands. So my collagen formation was a little off. And they say that's one of the problems of copper toxicity is that it can induce a scurvy like symptom because it could overpower the vitamin C's for taking a lot of this copper, we need to need to have the vitamin C, I did a lot better with vitamin C 1000 milligrams every day. But just because it's better, doesn't mean it's ideal. So I've been experimenting with more because I've been able to, let's say, not be so intimidated by Morleys view that C will block our or our copper because I'm taking so much copper. Since I'm taking so much copper, I can handle more of the antagonists, but it's not really an antagonist because vitamin C has at least 15 Different synergies with with copper, the you know, they both make collagen, they both kill germs, they both boost our immune system. You know, they're both great for the blood supply. And they're both they're both great for our circulation. When things are in synergy, it kind of explains the antagonism because if we need both vitamin C and copper to do something in the body. And if copper was the lagging ingredient and is no longer the lagging ingredient, then Vitamin C is going to be the lagging ingredient that we're going to run out of faster with our normal metabolic processes. So it's not about finding the you know, the maximum copper we can take with the minimum zinc and minimum vitamin C that avoid deficiencies, we want to take the optimal amount of copper, the optimal amount of zinc, the optimal amount of vitamin C. So my optimal ranges right now are roughly say 2000 milligrams of vitamin C 30 milligrams of oral copper, 70 milligrams of topical copper, and anywhere between safe 50 to 100 milligrams of zinc. That's where I'm at. And I might change. I might change.

Matthew Blackburn 2:03:32
Yeah, how many dropper falls does that amount to Jason of copper, the 70 milligrams, do you know how many roughly of the copper sulfate?

Jason Hommel 2:03:40
I don't go full dropper, I do like about a three quarter of the dropper or half the dropper in the palm of my hand, which is about I guess is about seven drops. Because if I put 10 drops in the palm of my hand, I'm going to spill some on the floor. So about, my palm can only hold about seven I put my two palms together and I slap it on the body. And I count maybe roughly 10 of those. So that's why I say 70. But it's very sloppy and very quick. And I'm guessing it's rough. You know, I just applied everywhere. Go fast.

Matthew Blackburn 2:04:09
Right Right. Well, yeah, those are great points he made and yeah, my next rabbit hole I want to dive into is ceruloplasmin activity, its relationship to ascorbic acid, because there's ceruloplasmin level, or amount in your body. But then there's activity, which is you can only measure that in Spain and Europe Morley said, it's like illegal to look at activity in the US. So I'm curious, but that's why, you know, again, I know it could get too high and get out of balance. And that actually causes things like psychosis and some mental problems if ceruloplasmin gets too high. So it's all Yeah, it's all about keeping things in range.

Jason Hommel 2:04:53
It's very interesting. You say that because since the last show, I began to look into ceruloplasmin to and I found that ceruloplasmin is often very high in people with arthritis. And I had and recovered from arthritis. So as a marker is high always good? Maybe not. That's very interesting. And I don't know why it's high in people with arthritis, it just I just know that it can be. I know arthritis is not a very healthy state. So is high ceruloplasmin always associated with increased health? And the answer is maybe not. On the other hand, on the other hand, the body is a very wise machine. And it could very well be that when we have arthritis, the body has such a great need for copper, the body is wisely making increasing ceruloplasmin high so that when we do get copper, it will make sure that it goes where it needs to go. We don't know whether or not ceruloplasmin is bad, just because it's high. in a bad state, very, very difficult to study these things, it's often we only just know, tiny glimpses of information and the interpretation, you have to look at whether or not it can be interpreted in either a bad way or good way and consider both possibilities. And be open minded to all the possibilities, rather, rather than just getting a one sided view on things.

Matthew Blackburn 2:06:13
That's awesome. I love it. That's a good, good place to close out. And so I'll put the links to all dates and stuff below. It's revealing fraud.com That's a great hub where you can find his first book Beyond "The arthritis fix" his new book, "The copper revolution", the Facebook group, where you can ask questions and see people's experience, experiences. And thanks so much, Jason, we got to do this again. It's always really fun chatting with you.

Jason Hommel 2:06:39
Thank you, Matt, I really enjoyed being on the show. You're You're wonderful. Thank you so much.

Matthew Blackburn 2:06:44
Appreciate it. All right, stick around as we close out. Well, that wraps up today's show, hope you guys got some interesting information out of that. I like bringing context to the discussion of health with this podcast. And I find that that's lacking in a lot of health information. staying open minded to nuance has really helped me in my understanding of human health. And not everybody has to take 100 milligrams of copper a day, he's just shining a light on the safety of increasing our copper intake. And that's a very modest amount. As he said at the start of the show, it's when that Metallothionein gets overwhelmed that copper toxicity kicks in. And that's between 5-10 THOUSAND milligrams. So that's a far cry from 100 milligrams. And since our last talk, I've been meditating on the idea that you can create a copper deficiency by eating oysters. So you can create imbalances from eating whole foods. And back to what I told Jason about the cattle and the liver biopsy that was done on cattle in Texas, and having minimal to no copper in their liver. We really don't know unless we have the farm ourself. And as I mentioned, that is the goal, we need more people that are learning about how to grow food, I'm really excited to learn about it with my geodesic growing domes from the company growing spaces. I'm sure that through that process of learning about soil chemistry, and mineral balancing, that I'll connect some dots with human health. But that takes time, right, I just didn't roll out of bed one morning and start a fully off grid homestead with goats and chickens and growing fruits and vegetables and doing it right with being sure that the plants are getting sufficient copper, and even going beyond like I'm going to experiment with with lodestones in the soil to increase the voltage because there is an electrical process occurring at the soil level. So my view is whether it's growing fruits or vegetables or animal husbandry, having cattle to process into meat or any animal to process into meat. I think we could do things better. And I don't think there are enough people out there that are experimenting and pushing the envelope with innovative new ways and I'm not talking about hydroponics or the creepy things that they're doing growing plants in large indoor buildings. I'm talking about small scale farms. homesteads, I found it really fascinating that bicarbonate uses up zinc. That blew my mind that makes me want to look into that further because I was slamming magnesium bicarbonate for several years. And avoiding zinc, like the plague. And yes, I was eating red meats, but I was not carnivore, maybe a steak a day, maybe ground beef once a day. But if you're correcting a let's just say for example, in my case, a 30 year deficiency, I question whether you can do that with food. So I think there's a lot more to research with the relationship with metallothionein , and zinc and copper and just the power of, as Jason said, the different metallothionein , he said, it's a family of enzymes. And also looking into this ceruloplasmin connection with zinc. The more I research, zinc, I find that it works together with copper, they don't oppose each other like enemies, you need both, just like I mentioned, the sacrificial anode on a ship. They work together to prevent corrosion. And I'd imagine that it works exactly the same way in the human body. So really appreciate what Jason Hommel is doing. We don't agree on the vitamin A thing. And I think that's a really beautiful thing. I don't think we should agree with everyone on everything. And that breeds new discoveries. And as long as we're staying respectful, not going to character attacks, which a lot of people tend to do, I think we can get some constructive learning happening here. His website is revealing fraud.com That's where you can get his book called The copper revolution. He has an arthritis fix book, and the Facebook group called copper revolution, where you can ask questions and share your experience with increasing your copper intake. And on that website, revealing fraud.com He actually has a lot of great blog posts, as a ton of them, actually. And if you're new to a lot of this information, that might be a good place to start, especially the quickstart guide, copper quickstart guide on his website is very useful if you're interested in experimenting with this copper thing. And I would recommend if you're not taking copper, you should not take zinc, because you will create a copper deficiency. It's a little tricky to not go by tests, because people are all about testing, plasma, the blood tests the HTMA is the hair tissue mineral analysis tests, and everyone wants to find the numbers. And maybe someday we're going to be able to look in the tissue, maybe they already have that technology it's being kept from us, I would not be surprised at all if that was the case. But as it stands now, we can't look into the liver without being very painful. And seeing what the liver stores of copper or or of the fat soluble vitamins are. So maybe someday we'll have access to that. And we'll be able to do that. But until then, I tend to agree with Jason, that besides iron, I highly recommend the full monty iron panel, because you can see a lot of different markers. And it is useful even if it's a few times a year to look for trends in your iron saturation, you're transferrin, all of the different iron markers. But when it comes to everything else, it's really difficult to get a picture of what's going on. As he mentioned, low plasma zinc does not necessarily mean that you're zinc deficient. So we didn't get a manual on how the human body works. And they've made it purposefully complicated for us to try to get us on the pharmaceutical hamster wheel. So we're really figuring all this out for ourselves. And I think we need pioneers like Jason Hommel out there that are experimenting and pushing the limits of what's possible. We didn't talk about shilajit in the show. I really want to get Jason some mitolife panacea and see how he feels on it. I really think that shilajit is the missing link for a lot of people's health because it's just extremely balancing. You're getting calcium, magnesium, potassium all of the trace minerals and ultra trace minerals and likely substances that we've not discovered yet all combined with that fulvic acid and fulvic acid, isolated, in my opinion is not the way to go. But to take the whole foods substance which is the shilajit resin, which contains other compounds like D-benzo Alpha prone's, and many other things. It's a symphony of nutrients that are working together to create a profound effect on someone's health. And on that topic, I will say that mitolife panacea did recently return back in stock, you can find that at Mito life.co. And I think as of this recording, it might be out or maybe it'll come back in. But I would recommend just checking. And if you happen to be on social media on Instagram, we announce it on the mitolife Instagram page whenever it's back in stock. And we recently were able to finally get a shipment in from Russia. And that's been a whole lot of work because of the current world events. But that is easily one of my top five favorite supplements. If I only had to pick five, that would be one of them. I take five tablets, which is one gram with my breakfast, after I eat breakfast, and sometimes I'll take it later in the day. But every day I'll take five tablets, maybe I'll take a day off here or there just to see if I feel a difference. But it is definitely an energy booster, a mental clarity booster, and just an overall Energizer for the entire system. And my website is Matt hyphen blackburn.com. You can find all of my recommended products up there, as well as my updated CLF protocol. With my new information that I've discovered about vitamin A protecting from lipid peroxidation. I want to give a shout out to my favorite red light therapy company. They're called gemba red, and they just released a new overclocked body light. So it's a full body light panel that contains both red and near infrared LED lights. And what I really appreciate about Andrew, the owner that have had my podcast a few times, he really dives deep into the literature on red light therapy, and debunk so many myths on his YouTube channel. He gets really, really technical with it. And he actually posted today that the common wavelengths for red light therapy devices you'll notice is 630 nanometers and 850 nanometers, but 660 nanometers, and ones that they actually don't usually use in popular, well marketed red light therapy devices. They're not using those wavelengths. I think his device really helped me through the winter here in northern Idaho where there's not a lot of light, not only UV light, but just light in general. I feel like it really helped to keep me going so I can jump back on my tractor and clear my driveway of snow. It definitely helped to keep me energized. So thank you guys for listening. There's a new episode released every Friday check out the mighty life Academy, I put a lot of time and energy into that. That's my private YouTube membership. If you sign up for the advanced tier, you get four private videos a month. And if you sign up for basic, you get one video and the live q&a once a month. And if you sign up now you get access to all of the previous videos, which I think is approaching two years now have a lot of information. Some people would call it biohacking tips. But it's way more than that. I'm not just plugging affiliate links. I'm talking about minerals in depth, whether it's sodium or potassium, or copper, or zinc, or the top EMF mitigation that is beyond the energy devices that I recommend. Just a lot of fun stuff and the q&a is are always cool the last day of the month, because I talked about my latest research. And I get to connect with members and answer questions they have. And it's just a whole lot of fun. So check that out. And stay tuned for the next episode that's released every Friday here on iTunes, Spotify and Stitcher. I will see you guys next week. week stay supercharged